Mr. Moore gets to punt on sharding

http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/1509-mr-moore-gets-to-punt-on-sharding

by riklomas • 18 years ago

17 13 18 years ago

mdasen3• 18 years ago

I'm a little surprised that 37signals hadn't sharded some of their applications. Sharding can be hard because you often don't have a logical way to separate out data. For example, on a site like this, you could shard articles based on year, but then if you wanted to get all the articles that a single user had submitted, you'd have to query several servers.

However, the inherent design of 37signals applications make sharding a lot easier. With 37signals apps, you're not dealing with all the users in the system or all of the data. You're dealing with one company's data and the users from that company. You could much more easily put data from companies with names A-I in DB1 and J-Z in DB2 and call it a day than most sites can shard. You wouldn't have to worry about things like losing cross database joins or having to lookup in multiple databases for certain reads.

In fact, with Basecamp, there's 6 possible domains that your site can be a subdomain of (projectpath.com, clientsecton.com. . .). Each one of those could point to a different set of app/DB servers. If you ran metrics on usage, you'd have to run it 6 times and aggregate the data, but in terms of user usage, each could be its own little separate system not even knowing the others existed.

Sharding becomes a problem when you can't fit all the data that will be used together on a single server. For example, Facbeook could shard by college, but you're allowed to have friends at different colleges from your own. So, you have to do things like cross shard lookups and that mess. With 37signals products (to my knowledge), everyone gets an account with your company's site and interacts with your company's stuff and if they want to interact with another company's stuff they log out and log back in with a different username/pass. So, everything can be neatly sharded by company since you don't have things that cross that boundary.

ROFISH• 18 years ago

In the case of Facebook, instead you would shard by feature. Every database server has replicateds of the user/friends data, but there'd be a separate server for the events or for groups.

mdasen3• 18 years ago

And what about when there are too many events for a single shard? And maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like the friends data would be the biggest issue.

Eventually, you get into some decently ugly stuff if you get big enough. Most people never have to worry about sharding (even 37signals doesn't), but there aren't just easy answers.

jhawk28• 18 years ago

Not sure how one would shard the data based on a RoR app.

mdasen3• 18 years ago

Hypothetical: So, you have 26 companies using Basecamp (Company A-Company Z). Your single database server can't handle all 26 companies so you decide to shard them.

Your previous setup: Webhead1-|- Database1 Webhead2/

So, you have two webheads reading from one database. You need to shard and have a second database: Webhead1--Database1 (Companies A-M) Webhead2--Database2 (Companies N-Z)

Easy! Think of it this way: because a person at Company A is never accessing Company Z's data, there doesn't need to be any communication between the databases. So, it shards in the same way that Wordpress shards: different sites are on different servers.

With Basecamp, you don't need every company to be on the same server because you don't move data between companies. But you don't need a separate server for every company either. So, you can put a bunch of companies on the same server and a bunch on another server and you're done. There's nothing magic or RoR specific.

joshwa• 18 years ago

http://github.com/fiveruns/data_fabric/tree/master

Or monkey-patch activerecord yourself to use a shard-index.

andr• 18 years ago

So Basecamp runs on a single database server?!

dhh• 18 years ago

Sure does. There's a backup database that has a live replication feed, of course, for availability. But for performance, we only need one.

I'd only run one application server too, if I could get away with it. Dealing with 1 is much easier than dealing with many. Do it as long as you can!

trezor2• 18 years ago

So as long as Moore’s law can give us capacity jumps like that, we can keep the entire working set in memory and all will be good.

I'm not going to say "this guy does not know what he is talking about", but what kind of shitty database are you running if you need to have the entire database cached in memory?

Isn't the point of having a proper RDBMS that it should be able to handle data more efficiently than what would be "logically" possible?

I've run databases with 100s of gigs of content on a 2-node cluster where each node "only" had 8GBs of RAM and performance nor memory usage wasn't an issue at all.

One point of real pain we’ve suffered, though, is that migrating a database schema in MySQL on a huge table takes forever and a day.

Oh right. MySQL. That explains it.

chrisbolt• 18 years ago

That's great if your data access is localized or infrequent enough that you aren't exceeding your disks' I/O limits, or if you have lots of I/O capacity by adding lots of spindles, but even adding spindles isn't going to be as good as adding RAM. Sharding just makes each shard's local RAM cache more efficient, and 37signals is choosing to have one 128GB server instead of 4 32GB shards, which is great as long as Moore's law keeps up with your growth.

trezor2• 18 years ago

My point was more that adding RAM isn't to be as good as having an actually good DB which doesn't rape your disk and CPU by using inefficient lookup methods, employing overly broad locks and which fails at transactions.

His IO-problem is because he is using a shitty database. Only in the MySQL-world is it common to need the same amount of RAM as the dataset you are working on.

And if you are going that way memory-wise, you might as well you use an in-memory flat textfile or persisted objects.

I'm not saying having excess RAM for caching is bad, because that is obviously silly, but when you need to have the entire DB in ram, you should realize something is horribly wrong.

smoody• 18 years ago

The one thing to keep in mind with 37signals advice: I assume they are building-out and maintaining their own boxes (TaDa List being the one known exception). Could be wrong about this, of course, but not all startups have the luxury to do that. If one can't afford to rent or build-out boxes stuffed with lots of ram goodness and super-efficient raid setups (perhaps 37signals has a dedicated highly optimized RAID-10 file server? that would also play into their ability to run from a single server), then sharding becomes much more important much earlier in the growth curve. I've always viewed sharding as a poor-man's approach to scaling (with the exception being rich-man's boundary condition sites such as flickr and facebook that have absolutely no choice). And, of course, let's not forget that memcached can play an important role for most people. The number of read queries they're executing might be 90% fewer if they're utilizing memcached properly.

Mr. Moore gets to punt on sharding

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