Mind Wandering: More than a Bad Habit (2018) [pdf]

https://labs.psych.ucsb.edu/schooler/jonathan/sites/labs.psych.ucsb.edu.schooler.jonathan/files/pubs/202._mind_wandering.pdf

by rzk • 2 years ago

143 80 2 years ago

labs.psych.ucsb.edu

tmshapland• 2 years ago

Thanks for posting. Reminds me of Dan Gilbert's famous paper on the subject. He took polls of people at random times during the day when smartphones first emerged.

"In conclusion, a human mind is a wandering mind, and a wandering mind is an unhappy mind. The ability to think about what is not happening is a cognitive achievement that comes at an emotional cost."

https://dtg.sites.fas.harvard.edu/KILLINGSWORTH%20&%20GILBER...

ocular-rockular2• 2 years ago

I'm so confused. I'm trying to understand what is wrong with mind wandering but to me it doesn't seem clear.

yamrzou2• 2 years ago

Check this: Why Mind Wandering Can Be So Miserable — https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-mind-wande...

even_6397656• 2 years ago

To say it's unhappy is not quite right, it's problem solving and running simulations whose goal is naturally and properly a source of low level anxiety - how to secure this organisms future well being.

That wandering mind is conducting probability analysis on potential future events and circumstances or the same calculation on the actual nature of past events. It is trying to secure its future security, to form an ugly phrase.

That's what this organism does with its mind. It runs simulations to try to predict the future in an if this, then that sort of way. That's its natural state. Seems harsh to call that "unhappy".

Productive reasoning, the kind of mental activity we are proud of and covet, in this context, is really less like thinking and more like acting, like engaging in affirmative, directed action.

nihhhh• 2 years ago

properly a source of low level anxiety

You're wrong on that, it would be more likely to produce a high level of anxiety, to ensure survival in the short term.

arijo9• 2 years ago

It's interesting how mind wandering can be analysed from different perspectives:

1. In meditation the main goal is precisely to free ourselves from the monkey mind that seems to be the cause of all suffering

2. In neuroscience mind wandering is seen as the brain default mode unless we are operating within a goal driven mindset

3. This can also be seen as a kind of reinforcement learning: we train ourselves to notice when we are mind wandering - this process in itself, after some time, conditions the mind to focus on the present moment

4. From a metabolic perspective (e.g. ketogenic therapy), mind wandering can be seen as the result of blood glucose fluctuations that cause mental fogginess and impair focus

In my own experience as a long time meditation practitioner, what really made the difference for me was regulating my blood glucose levels by following a ketogenic diet. The change in clarity of mind and focus were life changing to me.

I write a bit on my experience in my blog:

https://www.feelingbuggy.com/p/how-the-ketogenic-diet-helped...

Just my 2 cents on a fascinating subject!

hanniabu• 2 years ago

What is "monkey mind"?

nickvec• 2 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_mind

Aeglaecia• 2 years ago

more broadly , the difference between reacting and responding to a stimulus

even_6397656• 2 years ago

It's called reverie. The stream of thinking that you naturally have when you're not deliberately trying to focus.

Essentially, one thought leading to another which leads to another and so on, without you having to make any effort.

Most people identify so much with their thinking, they aren't aware of it as a "thing"; it feels like it's something you're doing.

What are you thinking about?

But if you try to just pay attention, say to your breath, going in and out, after a few seconds you'll discover you slipped back into thinking, as described above, back into reverie.

Continued failure, despite your increasing resolve, to stay just listening to your breath reveals this fact: you can't stop "your" thinking mind from recapturing your attention.

So it seems like a monkey, that is, a thing which jumps around, from thought to thought, a separate entity from you, one which will not obey you.

timacles4• 2 years ago

It is also known as karma mind in the Zen Buddhism.

Obsession over things that benefit you and avoiding things that hurt you.

yamrzou2• 2 years ago

From a metabolic perspective (e.g. ketogenic therapy), mind wandering can be seen as the result of blood glucose fluctuations that cause mental fogginess and impair focus

Could you please provide some sources for this?

arijo9• 2 years ago

https://brainenergy.com

detourdog• 2 years ago

What I think is interesting in your point number 3. is that a social framework be the reinforcement mechanism. Growing up in an isolated environment could presents one reality growing up in a strong social environment presents another reality.

The coping skills in one reality my not translate to the new reality.

sva_• 2 years ago

The change in clarity of mind and focus were life changing to me.

Feeling smart != being smart. I was once doing a water fast for a week and felt rather enlightened after a few days, like any problem would be easy. Upon trying to churn on some more advanced math proofs and programming stuff, it seemed to actually be harder than it would usually be. In fact I quickly decided that my time would be better spent walking around outside in the woods.

Fasting isn't really the same as keto of course. But I wonder if there are actual studies proving an increase in problem solving skills during something like a ketogenic diet or similar.

arijo9• 2 years ago

My ability to focus deeper and for a longer period of time increased substantially - I'm afraid my IQ is still the same ;)

Gooblebrai• 2 years ago

Feeling smart != being smart

Like many psychedelic users can attest to. The mindset of enlightenment is just another mindset that can be produced by the brain by doing the appropriate actions

nunodonato• 2 years ago

I can't say I get smarter, but I have very vivid memories of after-fasting days, and in the morning it was really easy to focus on anything I would choose to focus on, the mind would be extremely concentrated and still.

even_6397656• 2 years ago

Your body requires nutrients to function. Deliberately depriving your cells of those nutrients can't possibly be good for them and likely does them harm. You evolved to survive such catastrophes of course, but the key word is "survive".

What states of mind can be induced by fasting is a separate consideration, it seems to me.

naasking3• 2 years ago

Feeling smart != being smart. I was once doing a water fast for a week and felt rather enlightened after a few days, like any problem would be easy. Upon trying to churn on some more advanced math proofs and programming stuff, it seemed to actually be harder than it would usually be.

Exactly. Often touted for silly reasons, but it's definitely 100% true: feelings are not facts. Feeling healthier does not mean you are healthier. Feeling clearer does not mean you are clearer, etc.

__MatrixMan__2• 2 years ago

Do you have any thoughts about the possibility that it wasn't ketosis but instead just a lack of gluten?

I've not tried either but I've heard the same result attributed to making both changes (hard to know because they tend to coincide).

arijo9• 2 years ago

I think the main issue is the unhealthy up and down insulin spikes caused by modern high carbs diets.

primitivesuave2• 2 years ago

If you feel comfortable sharing, what is the meditation technique you practice? I am a Vipassana practitioner and found your observation to be anecdotally true - the commonly stated reasoning for the prescribed diet in a Vipassana course is that it minimizes the amount of blood diverted from other organs (i.e. the brain) to aid in digestion.

In any case, I found your statement "nothing to lose and could always return to my previous, though less-than-optimal, lifestyle" quite inspiring - thank you!

arijo9• 2 years ago

My approach these days is to follow a meditation mantra:

1. Slow down - the moment I'm aware my mind is no longer quiet and alert because of some trigger (internal or external)

2. Stop suffering - I do a quick body scan for the associated sensations along the body, tell myself this is just a temporary mood change, it will go away the same way it made its way into my body and mind

3. Take a deep breadth - I focus on my breadth for a few seconds and relax

4. Let it go - I know I should not blindly believe any thoughts or feelings that take over my mind and try to get back to a relaxed state of mind

I do this all the time not just during a few minutes of formal pratice. Its so ingrained in my way of being that some people close to me say my personality drastically changed.

But there's still a long way to go.

timacles4• 2 years ago

Learn zazen and zen Buddhism meditation. All other methods are inferior.

Simply observer your own thoughts and do not evaluate them as good or bad. Do this until you forget who you are.

Simple yet extremely difficult

naasking3• 2 years ago

3. This can also be seen as a kind of reinforcement learning: we train ourselves to notice when we are mind wandering - this process in itself, after some time, conditions the mind to focus on the present moment

I'm not sure how generalizable this is. Young kids that are still developing seem very present in most circumstances. I almost think we settle into mind wandering as we develop more responsibilities and have to plan further ahead and think about contingencies.

timacles4• 2 years ago

Not being present is an ego protection mechanism. Its classic psychology. As children get older, they develop ideas of who they are and naturally develop ways to protect their emotions.

When peoples' mind wanders, they cling to things that made them feel good or "Day dream" of things that would make them feel good. They're not planning ahead or thinking about contingencies.

Dealing with reality is hard, and being present means continually facing this harsh world. You can observe this with not just kids but adults in the modern world as people are more and more detached from reality and can live in some fantasy context by reinforcing with social media and internet echo chambers

phaedrus• 2 years ago

Does mind wandering in this context refer to daydreaming or does it refer to blanking out? As someone with late-diagnosed ADHD and likely also on the spectrum, I find myself struggling with both of these. I engage in a lot of Walter Mitty-esque hyper realistic daydreams, but I also have random periods of minutes of completely blank mind. Both result in a lot of "lost time" for me throughout the day. It runs in my family such we refer to it as "the our-surname fog".

Skimming this paper it's unclear to me whether the author is referring to one or the other, or both.

Interestingly I'm not sure that the mind wandering is separable from my creativity and problem solving. Often I'll come out of a blank period with the answer to something without consciously having been thinking about it. I think of these periods of "lost time" in my day as background processing - it's just my misfortune I live in a world where it's not socially or economically acceptable to space out for long periods throughout the day.

even_6397656• 2 years ago

I don't know about the blanking out part, but the rest of the description sounds like a regular human being. That intense daydreaming is, while not everyone's state, pretty typical of people generally. People with powerful brains just experience things intensely or deeply, including their own reverie. You should harness some of that horsepower.

But you always knew that, because it's obvious

FailMore• 2 years ago

Mind wandering (or more precisely the activation of the default mode network) and dreaming are hugely linked. Interestingly the “direction” of the mind wandering during rem sleep is the inverse of anxious mind wandering. When we are anxious we have high levels of the neurotransmitter norepinephrine, but during rem sleep it’s 85% below base waking levels.

In 2017 I wrote a paper discussing the implications for dream content and functionality. Here is the link for it:

https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/k6trz

And it was discussed on HN here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19143590

wslh• 2 years ago

After skimming the article, I found it unconvincing. It feels poorly structured, almost like something a high school student might put together for a monograph. The references seem to be there to add a sense of authority, but they lack clarity. Who exactly is the article referring to? Is it talking about all human beings, specific types of people like artists, or perhaps Einstein when he was daydreaming?

There are plenty of successful people who possess this trait the article critiques, which makes me wonder if one strong counterexample is enough to challenge the entire premise. In my view, the argument lacks depth and fails to consider broader, real-world examples.

calf• 2 years ago

I thought it was written by scientistic 1960s psychologists but it is actually from 2018, peak CBT pseudoscience.

musicale• 2 years ago

For me, undirected mind wandering (daydreaming, background processing, actual dreaming and similar states) seems to be the best source of creative thought as well as flashes of insight. And semi-directed mind wandering (brainstorming as well as random walks down pathways of thought) seems to be essential to problem solving.

However, schools and workplaces rarely appreciate any form of thinking that doesn't produce immediate tangible output with some kind of economic value.

dwg• 2 years ago

Are you certain?

I appreciate your thoughts on the value of mind wandering and creative thinking. While I agree that many institutions necessarily focus on immediate outputs, I've seen interesting counterexamples - from companies institutionalizing 'free thinking time' to schools incorporating mindfulness and creative thinking exercises. There is always room for improvement, but perhaps the landscape is shifting to better recognize these different thinking modes. Or, more likely, it has always been recognized, capitalized on, and very highly appreciated when it happens to produce valuable output, probably in almost any organization not just those encouraging free thought.

What has been your specific experience with this in schools or workplaces?

blueyes• 2 years ago

My personal goal is to make my mental happenings more visible in order to understand where I get off track while tackling a task.

I think knowledge work in general is plagued by the intangibility of the processes that lead to its artifacts.

Acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT) has a few things to say about this. (Here's Jonathan Bricker's TedX talk for a glimpse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTb3d5cjSFI&themeRefresh=1)

And a lot of what ACT does happens to echo what Buddhists are trying to do in meditation.

Maybe the most important aspect of mind wandering -- ie distraction -- is: what pushes us off track? In my experience, that's often a feeling of discomfort that is tied to the anticipated pain of a task. Sometimes that pain is tedium (I know what must be done and don't want to do it), other times it's complexity (I know I must do something but the exact steps are not clear), and other times it's sheer difficulty; ie I'm not breaking the task down into small enough chunks to feel able to do them.

I'm looking for my own internal protocol to sense mind wandering, identify which type of perceived difficulty caused it, and then take the steps to stay on goal: if tedium, put on podcast and forge forth; if complexity, back up and unravel the vague aspiration; if sheer difficulty, break it down into small steps.

I feel like the very ability to slip into metacognitive reflection depends heavily on my overall state, whether I'm doing all the right things like sleeping and exercising in order to monitor the internal course of work.

w10-1• 2 years ago

Interesting that they mentioned the default-mode network but not the salience network

I experience mind-wandering as sampling salience signals when no signals dominate (as they do in reactivity and goal- or motor-planning).

Mind-wandering presents unlike meditative absorption, when salience seems quiescent (or, conversely but rarely, sharp).

andyjohnson0• 2 years ago

What does it feel like to have a mind that doesn't (or only minimally) wander? I find it hard to imagine such a state. Would it even be psychologically healthy?

fluoridation• 2 years ago

The mind wanders when you're doing something repetitive that doesn't demand much attention, or when resting. So I guess if you were engaged all the time in something that requires concentration, your mind wouldn't wander.

metalman• 2 years ago

focusing a small lense is great but it wont help inprove its optical qualities which requires many small adjusments after the fact of creating a blank lense,size, or ,light gathering ability matters,but occlusions and outside conditions can determine the useability of the image produced and as we all know,there is a concerted effort happening to review all of the past ,randomly generated data,stored on film and tape by the metric fuck ton, for the secrets that exist there and only there,in sharp focus as our relentless gazing and fidgetings will be mined some other time and then as now,there are mad shamen gleefully and deliberatly burrying hints of what is,but cant be held

banga• 2 years ago

Interesting article. Key takeaway for me was: “Masicampo and Baumeister (2011) provided further evidence that it is specifically unresolved goals and concerns that trigger habitual mind wandering.” ... “Remarkably, making a plan freed participants from this kind of habitual mind wandering.”

Mind Wandering: More than a Bad Habit (2018) [pdf]

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