Ask HN: Would you use (or recommend) Windows as a developer laptop?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41401540

by kapad • 2 years ago

6 20 2 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

There have been a number of new features added to Windows over the past few years that make it a more developer friendly operating system. (WSL2, improved developer tooling, package managers, etc)

That being said, mac is still the answer I get most often when asking this question. (And I almost never get Linux as an answer).

Imagine, someone new to professional programming, or someone that's looking to learn, also needs to buy a new laptop (for a totally unrelated reason), and asks you for a recommendation based on their need to use the laptop for programming/development.

What would you answer? And WHY?

PS: Yes, mac software can only be developed on a Mac (and Windows needed windows, but that may be changing with Parallels on Mac, or other virtualization software). Please consider any generic web project for this question. (eg: a Node.JS webapp).

Bostonian• 2 years ago

I create internal software in Python, and the boss likes results in an Excel spreadsheet, which I create from Python pandas dataframes. Much of my work has been translating business logic in Excel spreadsheets to Python. So for me Windows is a natural choice.

PaulHoule2• 2 years ago

There are scripts to make Excel files from Python w/o having a copy of Excel.

PaulHoule2• 2 years ago

It's what I do. You get more for your dollar with a Windows machine than a Mac. Historically I felt Linux distributions had problems with the fit and finish of the UI but in the last few years I feel better about Linux.

pavel_lishin• 2 years ago

If someone is new to programming, I would recommend using the operating system they're already familiar with.

Switching from Windows to OS X felt like stumbling around a pitch-black room full of shin-height coffee tables & spilled legos, and now that I've been a Mac user for over a decade, using a Windows machine feels the same way.

There's no reason to inflict that sort of pain on someone who's already going to be learning a difficult new skill.

ssahoo• 2 years ago

Unless you build dotnet apps or apps specifically for Windows I won't use Windows for a laptop mainly due to its poor power management reasons.

satnam14• 2 years ago

Before .netcore came out this would've been a valid argument. Not anymore. I build .netcore apps on my Mac, with Rider as my IDE and I've never run into any major issues. The whole modern ecosystem is very well supported on OSX and Linux.

Personally, I can't stand ads on Windows and I prefer iTerm on my Mac over WSL on Windows. Not to mention that Mac hardware build quality, temperature and power management is much superior to anything that comes with Windows laptops.

deafpolygon3• 2 years ago

ads on Windows

I don't have that. Unless you're talking about the self-advertising Microsoft do for OneDrive/Office 365. Apple does the same thing.

samier-trellis• 2 years ago

Yes, Windows with WSL2 is a perfectly good development machine. I use a Mac for work, Windows for personal. I prefer the Mac, but I'm not sure it's worth a price difference of over $1k between a Mac and Windows with comparable specs.

yawpitch• 2 years ago

You’re talking about web development; the computer doesn’t matter at all, neither does the OS… get a very cheap used laptop and install NetBSD or any LTS version of Linux. Seriously, a decent keyboard you can type on is the only thing that matters.

Now, if your employer is paying for the damned thing, go for a Mac or, if you’re a confirmed masochist, Windows.

lucasoshiro• 2 years ago

That being said, mac is still the answer I get most often when asking this question. (And I almost never get Linux as an answer).

This is strange. Most developers that I know use Linux...

I use both Linux and Mac, and even though I like Mac OS, I can't see what it can add to a developer that Linux don't have except if you want to develop for the Apple platforms.

I really like Mac OS for other reasons not related to development. But for development it does nothing more for you that Linux already does, while Linux does a lot more that Mac doesn't.

What would you answer? And WHY?

I used Windows 11 recently, I can't say that it was a bad experience, except for the fact that it uses a lot of computer resources for doing the same that my Linux PC from 2012 does. And I felt very limited after using Linux for more than a decade. I even feel more free in Mac, as it is also a Unix-like OS. WSL does a good job, but I don't know why I would restrict everything that I have in Linux to just a terminal that I would still run over Windows...

If you don't care about paying a little more for having a Windows laptop and you somehow want Windows for something (maybe games, office or something that really needs Windows) I would suggest to buy it and install Linux in dual-boot, so you can have the best of both worlds.

aristofun• 2 years ago

Only if you develop _for_ windows.

In any other scenario - this is the worst devX that can be.

If your laptop is supposed to be a professional tool, it shouldn't piss you off every 30 min and waste your time and nerves on working around stupid problems and poor design decisions.

runjake• 2 years ago

You can do web development on any of the 3 main computing platforms. Pick the OS that best fits you.

For me, that's macOS most of the time, and Linux some of the time.

Linux would technically be the "best" platform, as that's what you're presumably running on the web server. If you're interested in pursuing the Linux desktop, you might want to read DHH's blog[1] as he journeys his transition from macOS to Linux. He's even written some opinionated software, dubbed Omakub[2], to customize the experience. Omakub isn't my kind of thing, but it's still neat and may interest you.

Windows would be my last choice, but that's personal preference. Some might argue that with WSL and Docker that Windows might be a better solution than macOS for web development, but I'll take my chances.

I rarely run into others who use Linux as a web development desktop. But, practically everyone uses Linux as a development target (IOW, as the serving platform).

1. https://world.hey.com/dhh/

2. https://omakub.org/

Mc91• 2 years ago

I default to Linux when I can. I have a System76 laptop (running Ubuntu, not PopOS).

My current company gives us a MBP or Windows laptop, my team gets MBPs, Linux is not an option. My preference if asked would have been Linux then MBP then Windows.

If Linux were not an option, MBP would be my next choice, since terminal brings me to a Unix shell, and there are things like homebrew etc.

I use my Linux machine for everything. I have an MBP, but I only break it out when I need to do a Zoom call or something like that - you can do it on Linux but I don't want to do the rigmarole of it. I also use it if I know someone has a Mac and I'm trying to debug something on their machine over the phone. Otherwise Linux for everything.

marssaxman• 2 years ago

I have not used anything but Linux for years. From what I see and hear about modern Windows, I don't know how people can stand it - but many clearly do.

brudgers• 2 years ago

If someone is most familiar with Windows and new to programming, being new to programming will give them more than enough problems. Throwing Linux into the mix will just add friction.

Later, if programming sticks they might have enough information to decide learning Linux makes sense. It is ok for a programmer to switch among OS’s.

Good luck.

giantg2• 2 years ago

The reason you get Mac as and answer is because those users are the most vocal.

There are some things Mac might be better for, like a UX dev. But the vast majority of companies issue Windows to their devs.

deafpolygon3• 2 years ago

That's quite a common bias - since Mac users tend to be more enthusiastic about using Apple products they tend to be more vocal about it. The rest of the world just uses what's in front of them.

solardev• 2 years ago

As a web dev: Mac. 1000%.

It can easily do the Unix-y things that you need to as a dev (Windows can too, it just takes a few more steps because it's not natively Unix-y.)

But, importantly, it can also seamlessly use the apps that you need to use with your non-dev teammates, like opening your designers' files (if you need to manipulate a SVG in Illustrator, let's say) or running whatever corporate software they use (Microsoft Office, Zoom/Teams/etc.) There are always workarounds on Linux machines, but why waste time on them when most things don't need workarounds on a Mac or Windows machine.

Lastly, the overwhelming majority of other web devs you'll likely meet will also be on Macs, and will only want to troubleshoot issues you might have on a Mac, and your issues on a Mac will get fixed way quicker than whatever obscure Linux flavor of the day might be. I haven't met a web dev not on a Mac for more than a decade now. (Firmware engineers, EEs, etc., sure, but not web devs). It's kinda a feedback loop... web devs love Macs because they're so good now, but then more web devs start to use Macs just because everyone else is too, and soon it's just the de facto standard for this work.

The Apple Silicon machines in particular are really, REALLY, REALLY good in terms of performance vs power consumption (meaning long battery life, low heat, low/no noise). And there are no shitty ads like there are everywhere in Windows.

When they first came out, there was some compatibility issues between the ARM builds on our dev machines and the x86 builds normally found on the cloud Linux servers, but most of that got sorted out within the first few years and hasn't been an issue for a while now.

And as much as I sound like a Mac fanboy, I grew up with MS-DOS, started using the Web on Windows 3.1, and developed on Windows for 20+ years before my first Mac, going through a variety of ThinkPads and Dell business machines. I also work with Linux VMs every day for work, but the desktop distros are just so unpolished compared to either Mac or Windows and the drivers are an eternal hassle. Apple did a really, really good job with the M-series and there is really no better choice today. Nothing else on the market even comes close. Intel is way, way behind right now.

I don't particularly like MacOS (I prefer Windows 7, so sad, too bad), but the Mac hardware is just so much better than the crap disposable PC laptops these days. Even the similarly priced ThinkPads significantly pale in build quality and performance/watt. PC still has the edge in some raw horsepower scenarios, but as a web dev you'll never need that. Being able to work on battery for a full day and never hearing the fan come on, though, while still not waiting more than a few seconds for any npm install? That's really nice.

deafpolygon3• 2 years ago

someone new to professional programming, or someone that's looking to learn, also needs to buy a new laptop (for a totally unrelated reason), and asks you for a recommendation based on their need to use the laptop for programming/development.

Short answer: Whatever platform you're already comfortable with.

Longer answer: It depends on the software you wish to develop. Most of the time, it hardly matters unless you're targeting a specific platform that have hardware restrictions. I can develop on Linux/macOS/Windows all equally terribly (I'm not a great developer) - I haven't really found the OS to be the bottleneck.

Web development? Any platform you're comfortable with. Most tools are cross-platform, and docker/containerization is a solved problem.

Mac/iOS software? Apple hardware is ideal for this (not because of the hardware, but that's the only place you get _supported_ by Apple on).

dotnet? Anywhere. But _better_ on Windows these days.

Android? Anywhere. Just bring plenty of RAM.

zzo38computer• 2 years ago

It would depend on other stuff. If you want to write software specifically for Windows (although not necessarily limited to Windows; you can use WSL to use and write Linux software too), or if you intend to use software that is only available on Windows (although note that some Windows software can run without Windows, e.g. by the use of Wine, so using Windows software does not necessarily mean you will have to use Windows), or if you particularly like Windows compared with other systems, then yes. Otherwise, I would say no, it would be better to not use Windows.

Ask HN: Would you use (or recommend) Windows as a developer laptop?

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