Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-talks-ai-rust-adoption-and-why-the-linux-kernel-is-the-only-thing-that-matters/

by CrankyBear • 2 years ago

75 117 2 years ago

zdnet.com

nabla9• 2 years ago

Rust

Switching to a more modern topic, the introduction of the Rust language into Linux, Torvalds is disappointed that its adoption isn't going faster. "I was expecting updates to be faster, but part of the problem is that old-time kernel developers are used to C and don't know Rust. They're not exactly excited about having to learn a new language that is, in some respects, very different. So there's been some pushback on Rust." On top of that, Torvalds commented, "Another reason has been the Rust infrastructure itself has not been super stable."

"When AI came in, it was wonderful, because Nvidia got much more involved in the kernel. Nvidia went from being on my list of companies who are not good to my list of companies who are doing really good work."

aeurielesn• 2 years ago

IMHO, as a C developer, I love Rust's features but the syntax is terrible.

andrewmcwatters• 2 years ago

Another developer here who writes in C and C++, same. I think a lot of people have this complaint. I'm sad about it because what Rust provides in principle sounds great. The language is hideous though, and I really don't want to write anything in it.

zozbot2343• 2 years ago

Yup, Rust syntax is just the worst - except for all the other syntax proposals that have been made over time: https://matklad.github.io/2023/01/26/rusts-ugly-syntax.html

tux3• 2 years ago

Regretfully a major Rust for Linux maintainer just stepped down yesterday, saying he doesn't have the energy to keep dealing with the constant nontechnical nonsense: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240828211117.9422-1-wedsonaf@...

tyleo2• 2 years ago

I lack context. What is the “constant nontechnical nonsense”?

speed_spread5• 2 years ago

Kneejerk pushback from old timers C-only kernel devs.

steveklabnik8• 2 years ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41386939

A comment there has a link to a video of what seems to be the final straw.

pif6• 2 years ago

Unless the Linux developer community at large requested Rust in the kernel, this is good news.

rowanG0775• 2 years ago

Good news for whom? The mental safe space of old time kernel developers? Or good new for users who will continue to have to deal with kernel panics and other memory issues.

AnimalMuppet• 2 years ago

It is never good news that "nontechnical nonsense" causes a major maintainer to step down, regardless of Rust or not-Rust.

thelastparadise• 2 years ago

He talks of a new memory safe kernel disrupting Linux the way Linux disrupted others.

Well, maybe that's exactly what should happen. Maybe rust should have never been allowed in the kernel in the first place.

It's caused a lot of trouble so far and for what? The dev community is fractured and infighting is rampant.

thinkharderdev• 2 years ago

It's caused a lot of trouble so far and for what?

The "for what" seems pretty obvious, no? It's the same reason you would use Rust over C in any other project. Memory safety and more modern PL features.

superfist• 2 years ago

In my opinion, in the case of the Linux kernel, Zig (once it reaches 1.0) would be a much better, more natural, and less painful choice than Rust.

stavros• 2 years ago

Well, maybe that's exactly what should happen. Maybe rust should have never been allowed in the kernel in the first place.

Can you clarify these two sentences? You say there should be a memory-safe kernel, and then you say Rust should never have been allowed, which is the opposite.

PhilipRoman• 2 years ago

That memory safe kernel doesn't necessarily have to be Linux itself.

thinkmassive• 2 years ago

He talks of a new memory safe kernel disrupting Linux the way Linux disrupted others.

So the next paragraph means:

Maybe rust should have never been allowed in the [Linux] kernel in the first place.

Suzuran2• 2 years ago

What they're getting at is that it probably would have been better if the Rust people had started their own kernel project, cherry-picked the pieces of Linux they wanted, and then made their own new thing without three decades of obsolete Unix/Linux baggage. This would mean they could spend their time actually writing software and and less time trying to convince a bunch of C programmers that their time is at an end and their influence is counterproductive.

ragebol2• 2 years ago

Meaning: Maybe there should be a competitor to Linux written in Rust

BTW: There are a few Rust OS kernels, but none of those have the popularity of Linux of course.

Linus Torvalds talks AI, Rust, & why Linux is the only thing that matters

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