Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

https://twitter.com/telegram/status/1827787345367834772

by bpierre • 2 years ago

131 135 2 years ago

aa_is_op3• 2 years ago

"It is absurd to claim that a platform or its owner are responsible for abuse of that platform."

What an utter ridiculous and misleading statement from the company that LITERALLY REFUSES to take down drug and malware shops from its platform.

There's tens of academic studies that have looked at this problem and many of them have Telegram as the worst offender.

Here's just one of the studies: https://cyber.fsi.stanford.edu/io/news/addressing-distributi...

ronsor• 2 years ago

Facebook is also full of drug and malware shops and advertisements for such.

threeseed3• 2 years ago

Meta will take down those ads if reported.

What is important when it comes to regulators is not whether you fail to comply or not. It is whether you take your responsibility to comply seriously e.g. timely responses to information requests, continuous process improvement etc.

amelius2• 2 years ago

Does that justify it then?

DragonStrength• 2 years ago

Yep, and I think we’re way too soft on Meta for what they push and profit from on FB and Instagram.

mc322• 2 years ago

…and Mastodon, and… basically all social media.

So it’s likely another reason but the authorities are using legal pretenses to arrest this guy.

heraldgeezer2• 2 years ago

Instagram and Snapchat is full of illegal shit.

asqueella4• 2 years ago

What’s the source for your “LITERALLY REFUSES” claim?

The study you linked names instagram as “the most important platform”…

miohtama2• 2 years ago

Telegram does not refuse take down content. I have reported scams, phishing, selling stolen credit cards and such to Telegram and they have all taken down. Maybe not in 24h, but still taken down.

Also from your study: “Our investigation finds that large networks of accounts, purportedly operated by minors, are openly advertising SG-CSAM for sale on social media. Instagram has emerged as the primary platform for such networks, providing features that facilitate connections between buyers and sellers. Instagram's popularity and user-friendly interface make it a preferred option for these activities.”

miohtama2• 2 years ago

Here is now an article that has some numbers on Telegram moderation and policies

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41354528

aa_is_op3• 2 years ago

Yes, it does. The Dutch government literally held a meeting on the topic of Telegram hosting reams of CP and revenge porn and not acting on any of their complaints for 2 years now.

H3BCKN• 2 years ago

What exactly is wrong with drug shops? Providing certain goods to consenting adults is not immoral. Let alone should not be a reason for them to be banned. In half of the U.S. states and European countries, cannabis is either legal or decriminalized in small amounts. In 2024, it's not a big deal, and without these means of communication, potential consumers would have to go back to the streets to purchase something, risking many dangerous situations.

I'm not a 'consumer,' but I consider it a huge advantage of such platforms in terms of increasing safety and clarity.

amelius2• 2 years ago

Can't the EU make their own messaging app?

ben_w7• 2 years ago

They did it's called Skype it got bought.

Also, what's that supposed to even solve?

throwaway485406• 2 years ago

They could put more people in prison.

Timber-65392• 2 years ago

Their "censorship czar" tried to hype up some app as a "safer alternative" to X on one of Elon's tweets. Can't remember the app's name.

hnhg• 2 years ago

There was/is also Wire: https://wire.com/en

tptacek2• 2 years ago

Wasn't Matrix in the running for this? And Threema is the standard in Switzerland, I believe.

rad_gruchalski3• 2 years ago

Well, Matrix is incorporated in the UK, not a member state of the EU, and Switzerland also isn’t a member state of the EU.

Gravityloss• 2 years ago

IIRC France sponsored open source secure messaging platforms

There are things like this: https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B• 2 years ago

They do it for themselves though, not for everyone. It’s a system called Tchap and is used by cops IIRC (https://element.io/case-studies/tchap).

lostmsu• 2 years ago

Which is still unusable due to the famous "this message can not be decrypted" problem.

heraldgeezer2• 2 years ago

Maybe they dont need to

The European Commission has told its staff to start using Signal, an end-to-end-encrypted messaging app, in a push to increase the security of its communications.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-commission-to-staff-switc...

cryptonector• 2 years ago

This is probably more about keeping their communications from the public's prying eyes. In the U.S. this sort of thing is illegal: all intra-government communications must be a matter of record except for oral communications.

vindex10• 2 years ago

I think this recent thread shows a good example, why it might be difficult to implement in EU:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41348659

ben_w7• 2 years ago

It is absurd to claim that a platform or its owner are responsible for abuse of that platform

As the law places certain responsibilities onto platforms, if you (any platform not just Telegram) say this kind of thing, are you sure you're following the law right, or are you just saying the law is wrong and bad?

MuffinFlavored• 2 years ago

> It is absurd to claim that a platform or its owner are responsible for abuse of that platform

Didn't some crypto mixer coin network creator just get found guilty for this?

stefan_• 2 years ago

Not a good start if they start shouting about the Digital Services Act, which of course has nothing to do with their CEO being arrested at an airport.

immibis2• 2 years ago

Not if the CEO was arrested for not doing things the Digital Services Act says he doesn't have to do.

Timber-65392• 2 years ago

The more the French authorities delay in releasing official information about Durov's arrest, the worse it looks for them.

I mean the West has always accused the East of employing similar tactics wrt arresting journalists/freedom fighters etc, how do we not see the irony here...

euroderf• 2 years ago

Your point is valid. We cannot reason about events based on intentions. We must reason based on capabilities, and on actions.

Muromec• 2 years ago

But he is not journalist, neither he is a freedom fighter

twelve40• 2 years ago

He definitely claims to be, "social media focused on freedom of speech and privacy". That's likely wishful thinking, but the way they went after him reinforces that image.

jdasdf• 2 years ago

They shouldn't.

fredgrott• 2 years ago

hmm gee setting up shell companies to avoid government subpoenas probably is not good at collaborating that narrative.

jMyles• 2 years ago

At some point, the adults in the room (and specifically, a few brave and seasoned elder statesmen/women) need to stand up and state the obvious:

On sufficiently long time scales, the internet will not tolerate states, and states will not be able to withstand the influence of the internet.

The ability to copy and send bytes around the world, to capture and disseminate media in such a way that forces transparency, but also to facilitate and democratize private conversation, to route around censorship... these are qualities that make what are today fundamental aspects of statecraft, such as state secrets, intellectual property, control over money supply and trade, surveillance, and censorship, impossible.

It's time to acknowledge that we need to transition our methods for ensuring each other's safety, well-being, freedom, justice, and prosperity via stateless channels and stop regarding states as having any jurisdiction over the internet.

mgaunard• 2 years ago

Sounds like anti-statist propaganda.

wmf• 2 years ago

Basically Barlow's Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace from the 1990s. I think history has shown it to be more wrong than right.

greenthrow• 2 years ago

You are delusional my dude. Servers and routers exist in meatspace. The meatspace laws win out.

wffurr• 2 years ago

The printing press also existed in meat space and yet it broke the power of the medieval Catholic Church and toppled monarchies.

The Internet seems like a similar invention but the effect on the nature of states is harder to fathom. I don't know if anyone living in the 1500s would have predicted a world where the top 10 militaries are all in a single alliance and the church would be a shadow of its former self.

I think there are interesting times to be had. Democracies certainly seem to be feeling the effects for good and ill of the collapse of traditional gatekeepers in the face of free distribution of information.

peoplefromibiza2• 2 years ago

the only problem in your manifesto is that no internet can exist without connectivity.

He who controls the cables controls the (cyber)universe

grujicd• 2 years ago

If anything states are much more involved in policing internet than 20 years ago. As more and more stuff goes online, I don't see governments reversing this trend, quite the oposite.

ben_w7• 2 years ago

On sufficiently long time scales, the internet will not tolerate states, and states will not be able to withstand the influence of the internet

To the extent that this is correct, it means states cannot tolerate the internet, and will transition to not using or allowing it.

these are qualities that make what are today fundamental aspects of statecraft, such as state secrets, intellectual property, control over money supply and trade, surveillance, and censorship, impossible.

State secrets are primarily voided by cheap surveillance, e.g. that a laser microphone is now a high school project.

IP is covered by international agreements, though may be voided by AI.

Control over money is done by requiring residents pay taxes in whichever currency, nothing about the internet changes that.

Supply and trade correspond to people with guns on the borders, that's only going to change with personal nanoscale 3D printing and delivery by orbital bombardment, not the internet.

Surveillance is likely to get much more prevalent rather than become impossible, e.g. aforementioned laser microphones.

Censorship might become impossible. Or perhaps we'll find new ways to do it. Jamming works by increasing the noise so you can't get a signal, GenAI may do that easily.

thefourthchime• 2 years ago

I'm starting to feel like the eu is an embodiment of the comic book guy from The Simpsons. He's just there and takes up space, complain about everything, and not do anything themselves.

darkhorn• 2 years ago

https://turan.az/en/politics/putin-refused-to-meet-with-pave...

adamtaylor_133• 2 years ago

The EU has proven itself time and time again to be so openly anti-innovation that it’s difficult to even take legislation like the Digital Services Act seriously. None of my products operate in the EU and for good reason. I have no interest in playing the legal games required to support them.

I wish I more fully understood the cultural differences that make this anti-innovation stance so prevalent in the EU.

throwaway220324• 2 years ago

Old world aristrocratic mindset.

It's not just the European Union, the UK is the same.

There is a heavy bias towards what works for the incumbents.

One of the ways in which this plays out in Britain is that almost everyone is culturally conditioned to consider themselves as being a certain "class" of person e.g. they'll never start a business, they'll never earn above a certain amount, they'll work 50 years for a company (not the same necessarily, just "a company"), if they're lucky they'll get a mortgage on a 2 bedroom house. They look down on others who want more than that, which works very well for those who have it and want to maintain that moat.

Contrast that with the US in which success is celebrated and even the poorest dream of one day "making it".

IdiocyInAction3• 2 years ago

The UK leads in Europe for start up founding…

Almost nobody in the UK works for the same company for 50 years and this used to be a thing in the US too.

Canada has similar laws/issues.

Social mobility is also higher in the UK than the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index

Now I don’t trust these indices tbh, but I trust them more than a nice sounding anecdote.

There is a class divide in the UK but it's more complex/nuanced than what is described in this comment.

wkat42423• 2 years ago

The US dream of "making it" is all about money.

What we in Spain consider "making it" is to enjoy life, having time to relax, pursuing hobbies, spending time with family. And not having to worry about healthcare bills and pensions. We don't need a lot of money for that. I don't always want more. I just want enough.

In the US the vast majority never "makes it" and they are far worse off than we are here. I think Europe is great the way it is. I would not move to the US even if I was offered a job there. In fact I don't even want to visit and never have though I've lived in many countries around the world.

rsynnott2• 2 years ago

The US has lower social mobility than most developed countries; in particular if you’re in the bottom quintile in the US, your chances of making it out are particularly low relative to other countries.

rasz2• 2 years ago

innovation like selling drugs and ordering hitmen? Which US social media platforms can be used to quickly, effortlessly and openly sell drugs? I know of one that tried, owner is in US prison right now.

mc322• 2 years ago

Probably Mastodon.

pokot0• 2 years ago

It’s the difference between legislation for the benefit of people and legislation for the benefit of businesses. Both can be good or bad, it’s just a different mindset.

stainablesteel• 2 years ago

the EU may as well go back to the stone age, it seems to be what they want

graftak• 2 years ago

Funny that you say that because to a European the US worker and consumer rights seem very archaic. There just might be more to life than tech innovation and startups.

thefz4• 2 years ago

For many indices the US is a third world country.

delbronski3• 2 years ago

I wouldn’t say anti-innovation. The EU just places more value on protecting workers/consumers than businesses. I can understand that to a lot of Americans a government that tries to protect its people from businesses may not make sense. But most of us in this side of the world cheer on when big companies like Apple have to bend to the EU. Yes, even if it makes starting my own business more difficult.

As a European entrepreneur I care a lot more about consumers/workers being treated fairly than I do about innovation. I know the EU does not always get this right. But man, the US treats is workers and consumers like crap.

I wish I more fully understood the cultural differences that makes this business-first stance so prevalent in the United States.

2-3-7-43-18073• 2 years ago

i also cheer when apple has to bend over but when i'm honest it's more for primitive reasons and a general hate for their product line which i am somewhat forced to use. but apart from that EU regulation is mostly a negative in the sense of prohibiting and restricting business activities - which some might consider innovation. but EU isn't particularly strong with regard to enabling innovation and business activity.

southernplaces72• 2 years ago

The EU just places more value on protecting workers/consumers than businesses

This is flagrantly bullshit, unless you're claiming that there's some sort of intellectual and moral difference in European human beings because... reasons...

The EU is as corporatist and protectionist of big business as it's possible to be, it just hides it (poorly) behind a number of veils while throwing moral-sounding legalisms at certain companies and entrepreneurial culture in general. I say this as someone who fully detests some of the rapacious grubbiness of many American tech companies and the silicon valley culture and believes both should be watched carefully. Nonetheless, this placement of the EU on an absurd pédestal because it's "European" needs to burn and die.

As a European entrepreneur I care a lot more about consumers/workers being treated fairly

These sorts of claims are tediously common here on HN from too many people obviously from Europe. For one thing, as a European the only thing you can establish under that rubric is that you're from that part of the Eurasian continent. Nothing more, certainly not morally or emotionally. Being a European menas being part of dozens of cultures that all have their own details, and of which many are no less greedy, self-serving, dishonest and in further extremes racist as hell, than they are in many other parts of the world.

Does your smugly self-indulgent statement somehow imply that American entrepreneurs only care about squeezing every last dollar while crapping as much as possible on their employees and customers? If so, I invite your to open your eyes wider.

niemandhier2• 2 years ago

Nothing physical I own was made in the US, at least not visibly. I checked last year due to a bet, everything is from Asia or the EU.

For HN innovation often means digital stuff, but the world remains a physical space.

The EU is a decent place to start non digital high tech companies. Germany was at the cusp of becoming a biotech powerhouse, the war and energy price increases killed that.

But these are external factors, so I think it counts as a counter example.

throwaway485406• 2 years ago

How many of the things were designed by Americans? The actual place of manufacturing matters less than who owns and is capable of producing the design and manufacturing process. For example chips - I absolutely don't believe you don't have an American CPU. If you have Intel, it was made in USA, but even if not, it's not like the Chinese, Taiwanese or Koreans could just go and produce an AMD or Apple-comparable chip, just having a factory to produce a chip is very far from actually producing a competitive chip. Samsung is trying but Exynos, while a good chip by itself, is definitely not comparable to Qualcomm.

thefz4• 2 years ago

I instead am glad that this far west is finally regulated.

If you do not wish to respect customer privacy laws, I am ok with you not wanting to sell your product in the EU.

hn1986• 2 years ago

This is no different than a tor server getting raid because it's hosting CSAM. Telegram CEO was arrested bc he did nothing to control the amount of CSAM in the public channels he was hosting. People on HN are sadly very misinformed on this issue.

https://www.ft.com/content/196fbc63-b311-4e9f-bd6a-ffcc7e2a6...

asqueella4• 2 years ago

Please educate us. The article you linked only has these two bits, as far as I can see:

Ofmin, a French police agency set up last year focused on preventing violence against minors, said on Monday that Durov is alleged to have failed to adequately moderate criminal activity.
“At the heart of this issue is the lack of moderation and co-operation by the platform (which has nearly 1 billion users), particularly in the fight against child sex crimes,” Jean-Michel Bernigaud, the secretary-general of Ofmin, wrote on LinkedIn on Monday.

And:

Durov has taken a hands-off approach to moderation and cast the app as unassailable by governments. However, some researchers have warned that it has become a hub for illicit activity and extremism as a result.

vvpan• 2 years ago

Too much talk going on without actually hearing the charges.

gwervc• 2 years ago

Despite claiming 24/7 it's a democratic country ruled by the rule of law, there's a lot ideological abuse of the laws used against ideological opponents going on in France. Somehow non-ideologically threatening criminals get a free pass to do whatever they want.

Source: I'm living in that lunatic asylum.

rasz2• 2 years ago

There is a war going on in Europe right now. Real war with tanks, bombs and rockets, often hitting hospitals in Kyiv for some weird reason. This arrest put russians in a panic mode. Did you know russian army is actually using Telegram for coordinating strikes, and Discord for FPVs? https://youchu.be/watch?v=mwtbTuLZXWw

You know something is up when russians, and Snowden (or his handler), are calling the arrest of French citizen in France "taking hostages".

sudosysgen• 2 years ago

This is irrelevant. The Russians can just switch to Signal, or run their own instance of Telegram trivially.

monetus• 2 years ago

An unrelated point on that note -

The Russian army is trying to restrict phones amongst their troops right now, from what I can tell. The soldiers who need telegram the most to handle their own logistics and strategy, because that is horrificly a thing, need telegram.

kattagarian• 2 years ago

ukrainians uses telegram just as much. It's a popular app in eastern europe and asia.

thefz4• 2 years ago

From the tweet:

It is absurd to claim that a platform or its owner are responsible for abuse of that platform.

No, it is exactly the law.

2-3-7-43-18073• 2 years ago

laws can be absurd.

thefz4• 2 years ago

Dura lex, sed lex.

agapon2• 2 years ago

Telegram blah blah, according to Telegram.

Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act

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