Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

https://www.jogmekeebs.com

by jogme • 2 years ago

85 77 2 years ago

I had an issue a few years ago - every ergonomic keyboard I tried had the switches too close to each other and my fingers were cramped in that small space. Then I decided to create a keyboard which is suitable for larger hands and eliminates most of the wrist movement. 34 keys was the most optimized version for achieving as little wrist movement as possible. You can try the fitment for your palm IRL with the printable template on the website.

weinzierl• 2 years ago

I find it interesting that there was a time when everyone seemed to get overboard with thumb keys and that now things seem to settle at two per hand.

jbarberu2• 2 years ago

I started my ergo-keyboard journey with a corne. I ended up having issues with the thumb cluster positioning and built my own prototype on new years eve this/last year. That board features four thumb keys, six columns, with four rows for index and middle finger and five for ring finger and pinky (essentially a 6x5 board with four of the bottom keys moved into a thumb cluster. A lot of keys ended up unused on that design (the lowest pinkey and ring finger keys were completely useless).

A couple of months back I built another prototype, this time with a 6x4 + 4 layout. I'm still not loving the layout, four keys is too much for the thumb cluster and I'm looking at dropping down to three. Ironically I've already setup my layout so it almost only uses 6x3 + 3 (I use the top row for non-typing keys like F1-F12), and in effect reinvented the Corne that I started out with...

zamalek3• 2 years ago

The consumer ones are still pretty gung-to with thumb keys.

jogme14• 2 years ago

Given the thumbs limited movement, I came to a conclusion that 2 keys are comfortably reachable, but to reach the third thumb key, the thumb needs to get into a weird and uncomfortable position. That was my problem with the corne I had and I just stopped using the innermost thumb key because of that. Do you have a similar experience?

flurdy• 2 years ago

That is why I have those for keys I rarely use, such as 'esc' and 'del'. Relatively rare - as they are obviously used frequently enough but not really when typing.

And then I hit them with my middle finger instead, or rather smash them as it requires the whole hand to move slightly.

So in my case does not affect speed or comfort (not a frequent VIM user etc)

But if I only had two thumb buttons I would be ok.

jhardy546• 2 years ago

Thumb tuck is awful, and is one of my biggest complaints with Corne-style keyboards. I’m building a Dasbob in the hopes that the thumb arc is more comfortable, but we’ll see.

setopt3• 2 years ago

MacBook keyboards have a similar modifier layout to a Space Cadet in some ways: On your left hand, there’s {Cmd, Opt, Ctrl, Fn} in a row. Emacs on MacOS can use all four modifiers, e.g. mapping them to the historical {Ctrl, Meta, Super, Hyper} keys that were in the same place on a Space Cadet.

setopt3• 2 years ago

Note that this is slightly different from PC keyboards. On Mac, Fn as a modifier is handled by the OS and can be remapped (in System Settings or by individual apps like Emacs). On most PC keyboards, Fn causes different signals to be sent to the OS, making it very hard to use it for other purposes than intended.

noelwelsh2• 2 years ago

Interesting to me you say this, as my main criticism of most ergo / split keyboards is they don't have enough keys on the thumb. I started with a Maltron [1] with 8 keys on the thumb and that seems a good arrangement to me.

[1] https://www.maltron.com/store/p11/Maltron_L89_dual_hand_full...

user_7832• 2 years ago

I agree, I think the kyria, lily58 (and its derivative lotus58) are decent options, though the BFO9000 could also work as the ultimate split keyboard haha

clircle2• 2 years ago

Interesting to see a Maltron user in the wild! What made to buy one, and what's your take on them? (say, compared to Kinesis Advantage?)

CarVac• 2 years ago

My Mitosis layout has 8-button thumb clusters but only three on each hand are used frequently as thumb keys. On the other hand, they're set up in my layout so two on each side can be held simultaneously for shift+num layer.

The rest I just use for miscellaneous other uses, like pgup/pgdn and inverted-T arrow keys. It's not for use with the thumb, but it's just a handy place to put keys you'd have to move your hand for anyway.

nickzelei• 2 years ago

I have the moon lander and have settled to almost never using anything on the thumb cluster. It just didn’t feel very natural to me to have to reach for the thumb. I have larger hands too. I think what I do have mapped is only the first two keys too.

bb88• 2 years ago

I would rather have the extra keys on the thumb as an alternative to today where the pinkies are overloaded. The thumb only has to hit the space bar.

Ballas• 2 years ago

Interesting, I have found the standard key spacing too far apart, I cannot fathom it being too close for some. I guess hand size variance is bigger than I think.

Could you explain what you did to achieve "diodeless" design and how do you prevent masking?

daliusd• 2 years ago

34 keys are usually diodeless as many microcontrollers (promicro, elite-c and etc.) have enough connections to connect everything directly on one side of split keyboard and when you need one connection to communicate between sides. RP2040 can accommodate even more keys (even RP2040-zero). You need two microcontrollers of course.

jogme14• 2 years ago

Could you explain what you did to achieve "diodeless" design and how do you prevent masking?

I was not precise with the "diodeless" definition - the keys are directly connected to the processor pins without using a matrix. (Therefore there are no side effects of the matrix design - ghosting, masking, key rollover. The key presses are more precise and for me they seem more responsive - less latency, but unfortunately I have no data to prove this statement.) Thanks for the question, I will fix the definition!

Also eliminating the diodes reduces the cost and the time it takes to build the keyboard, which is always nice IMO!

gadgetoid• 2 years ago

I could believe you feel less latency, but suspect that’s more a symptom of matrix scanning working for the general case rather than being optimised for your layout. Scan with an RP2040’s PIO [1] and after debouncing I’d challenge you to measure the difference, much less notice it.

(Of course if you’ve got the pins, you should use ‘em!)

1. https://github.com/isoxliis/firmware-micropython/blob/72687e...

jbarberu2• 2 years ago

Having implemented a custom matrix in qmk, I can say the timescale involved is not something you'd notice a difference between diodes vs diodeless. On ARM boards there's a setup delay to let the gpio propagate before reading the columns, which by default is set to 0.25us, which means reading 4 rows would take about 1us.

I built a macropad that has some regular keys and a SNES controller on the "same matrix", total scan time is 335us, which is dead slow as far as scanning goes, but nothing you'd be able to notice.

Other points are fair though, fewer parts in the BOM. Though routing is a bit trickier with diodeless, especially if you also want to adressable RGB.

jogme14• 2 years ago

iiuc you are comparing matrix implementation with or without diodes. What would be the results between matrix against pin/key implementation? I am using QMK and I haven't looked under the hood what the "direct pin" actually does.

flacebo2• 2 years ago

The default debounce algorithm in QMK also introduces a minimum of 5ms delay, and the default usb polling rate another 10ms.

To mitigate the debounce algorithm delay, you can put "DEBOUNCE_TYPE = asym_eager_defer_pk" in your rules.mk file.

What this does:

asym: use different debounce algorithm for key-down and key-up events.

eager: the key-down is registered instantly at the first signal, instead of waiting 5ms for debounce

defer: registering key-up will wait for the debounce delay, this will make sure you won't get multiple key-downs registered before a proper key-up

pk: per key debounce timer, uses the most resource but you have plenty on your rp2040. although I don't completely understand how this works, this is supposed to be the fastest.

To increase the polling rate, this can be defined in config.h:

#define USB_POLLING_INTERVAL_MS 2

It's in ms, so 2 is 500hz, 1 is 1000hz, IMO the latter is overkill.

Together, you save a minimum of 6ms, maximum of 14ms of delay, which is orders of magnitude more than you save by not scanning the matrix.

Brajeshwar• 2 years ago

Have you tried or were inspired by The Voyager? My friend has a Moonlander and we were discussing that the Voyager might be the ideal for the setup we were looking for.

https://www.zsa.io/voyager

jogme14• 2 years ago

I haven't tried and wasn't aware of the Voyager at the time I started this project. Looking at it now, I think I would come to the same issue of the switches being too close to each other.

My first split was a corne (I have a feeling that many people started with a corne here) and then I wanted a draculad[0], but it wasn't available for almost a year. These two keyboards had given the most of the inspiration for the YetiS.

[0] https://keebd.com/products/draculad-keyboard-kit

sierisimo• 2 years ago

I own a voyager and you are correct, the switches are too close so I frequently press things by accident.

Findecanor• 2 years ago

Interesting. Back in the '80s, the ergonomic keyboard [0] designed as part of the Japanese TRON project was originally supposed to be produced in three different key pitches for differently sized hands, based on measurements of Japanese people [1].

Another aspect was that some key columns were splayed, being more apart further away. It has inspired many follow-ups in the DIY ergo-mech scene in more recent years.

[0] http://xahlee.info/kbd/TRON_keyboard.html

[1] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/An-Implementation-of-t...

bobmcnamara• 2 years ago

Years ago a chip supplier suggested using their RTOS. We asked what it was called. They nearly shouted, "Industrial standard Micro Industrial The Real-time Operating system Nucleus, haven't you heard of it?" This would begin a year of Google translation of Japanese RTOS docs.

Neat keyboard. Also pretty cool how far the TRON project went and how many parts of computing it influenced.

zamalek3• 2 years ago

I'm currently designing a board from actual traces of my finger movements on paper (I was mildly amused when I found that they are not symmetrical, like all human features) in combination with these: https://fkcaps.com/keycaps/hex. It's also my first attempt at using a MCU directly (kinda, MDB50Q).

Probably not possible to make a product from my anthropometrics, but I could try average out a few hands.

jogme14• 2 years ago

The human is not perfectly symmetrical by a vertical line - same as our faces!

Do you have the project somewhere online to share - git, blog, reddit, etc.? I would like to have a follow up on your progress!

zamalek3• 2 years ago

Thanks for the interest, it's on the back burner at the moment because I'm currently rage-coding a text editor :). Here's the repo regardless https://codeberg.org/jcdickinson/hexkbd

jhardy546• 2 years ago

If you have a large enough touchscreen, I’d also recommend https://pashutk.com/ergopad/

(Note: this breaks down a bit once you move to concave key wells)

jogme14• 2 years ago

This tool is awesome for design! Thanks for sharing it!

Tepix• 2 years ago

I have glove size 10 (XL usually) and the Keyboardio Model 100 suits me well. Best keyboard i've seen so far.

smeej4• 2 years ago

I've yet to wrap my mind around two things that are extremely common on "ergonomic" keyboards: ortholinear keys, and the positions of the C, X, and Z keys in the columns.

I type those with my index, middle, and ring fingers, respectively, because when I pull my fingers back toward my wrists with my hands sitting at a neutral angle, those are the keys they pass. Moving from A to Z on a regular keyboard would be a disaster of a hand position!

Who is it who's teaching people to type that way on standard keyboards? I'm an elder Millennial, so the first class in my school that ever practiced typing in kindergarten, in the very early '90s. When and why did anyone switch to a horrible hand position?

It's only from that horrible hand position that I can imagine "keys in a straight line" being an improvement. My index fingers cover more than one column of keys, so staggering them makes all of them easier to reach, rather than one set really easy and the other set much more awkward. My fingers do not move in straight lines from coiled to uncoiled, and I doubt other people's do either. They splay as they extend. They should be able to cover more keys with less movement extended than they do coiled, so putting keys in straight lines makes it worse, not better.

jhardy546• 2 years ago

I agree, but would suggest that the solution is splayed columns rather than staggered rows. Lots of keyboards do this, even more “normal” keyboards that are far from being Dactyl-like: https://github.com/GEIGEIGEIST/TOTEM

Also relevant, but for improving the ergonomics of “normal” keyboards with staggered rows: angle mod. https://colemakmods.github.io/ergonomic-mods/angle.html

jadyoyster• 2 years ago

I was taught touch typing with pinky on the Z and index on the V for the bottom row. I think that's how it's designed to work, and that in this context stagger is a historical accident that ergonomic keyboards fix.

smeej4• 2 years ago

This certainly lines up better with my actual fingers...

http://www.onehandkeyboard.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Z_...

spiderice• 2 years ago

I type those with my index, middle, and ring fingers

I have never heard of anyone typing like this. I type those keys with my middle, ring, and pinky finger respectively.

A quick google search of “qwerty finger map” shows that middle-ring-pinky seems to be the standard. I don’t see any disagreement across any of the results. I suspect that your typing class was the exception, or you just picked up doing it differently than what was taught. I don’t think there was a large scale “switch” on how things are taught.

But yes, if you type differently than that then ortholinear keys would probably require you to make adjustments.

setopt3• 2 years ago

I’m not the one you replied to, but I generally type without using my pinky at all – including pressing Caps Lock (Ctrl) and Enter with my ring fingers. For me, I’ve had bad cases of RSI before, and find it more ergonomic to move my hands a bit more and avoid using the pinky most of the time.

smeej4• 2 years ago

The second image in this article shows the typing position I'm talking about, and the article as a whole does a decent job explaining why it's better (though it's probably fairly obvious if you just look at the shape your hands make when you bring them together).

This was normal when I learned. Really wondering why anyone would change it.

https://www.onehandkeyboard.org/standard-qwerty-finger-place...

samatman3• 2 years ago

It's only from that horrible hand position that I can imagine "keys in a straight line" being an improvement.

As long as you type comfortably, you're doing fine. But if you want to wrap your mind around it, that starts with grokking that not only do most touch typists type Z with the pinky, and so on in, that is how it's taught as well.

So if it's what you do already, ortho just straightens that out. Most ortho keebs (I think? Not all of them, but most) are also splits, so the keyboard is lined up with the palm, something which isn't possible with a straight keyboard.

So given all that, columned keys are great. It's 32 keys which I can type without any elbow movements at all. Add in some thumb keys and we're really cooking ^_^.

smeej4• 2 years ago

It wasn't until I started seeing ortho keyboards that I realized anyone had ever been taught this, and I still can't figure out why.

This placement was normal when I learned to type, and it matches much more closely the shape my hands naturally make if I bring them together in front of me: http://www.onehandkeyboard.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Z_...

zargon• 2 years ago

Typing instruction never changed. Standard method has always been pinky on z, since typewriters. You were just taught an unusual method (or maybe picked it up on your own).

Ring finger on z is just as uncomfortable for me as pinky on z. The problem is the typewriter key layout, not finger placement.

jhardy546• 2 years ago

Neat! I’m surprised to see no splay, is it just subtle or have you decided against it? The thumbs look comfy and aren’t tucked under the palm, which is my biggest complaint with most keyboards, but I’m using Miryoku (36 key layout) and I’m not sure that I’d know what to do with a 34-key layout.

(Miryoku has a kludge to let you press two thumb keys at once to emulate the third, for 34-key keyboards, but that works best with low-travel switches very close together.)

How do you like the lateral pinky position? I’m currently building a Dasbob and love the pinky splay/stagger, but I’m curious about moving the top pinky key to the right.

jogme14• 2 years ago

Thanks!

Good point for the splay. For some reason I didn't consider it, but looking at it rn I could put a some of the keys in an angle which would feel better. I'll consider it for the next release (or a different version)!

I have nothing against 36 keys layout, the only reason for eliminating 2 thumb keys is that I can't find a proper place for the third thumb key where it would be in a nice position. I could add one key at the inner side, but the thumb just goes below the palm and it is not a comfortable position (for me at least). If you have any suggestions, please let me know! There is always space for improvement.

The lateral pinky position wasn't on the first design, but then someone with a shorter pinky who couldn't comfortably reach the top key tried it and suggested to place it there. I tried it and actually felt a lot better. (to reach the top pinky key I need to make a wrist movement, but not like this). I love it.

jhardy546• 2 years ago

Honestly I’ve never tried a 34-key layout, though I’ve seen loads in the keyboard layout DB. Are you using something like Seniply?

Also in case it’s useful: much ink has been spilled about TRRS and its alternatives, but I haven’t found any references to folks using an I2C connector (4-pin JST) instead, which eliminates hotplugging risk without introducing the risks of USB/etc.

I purchased a KB2040 (which has a female I2C connector), a 400mm male-to-male I2C cable, and an I2C GPIO expander, which is slightly cheaper than a second RP2040 on the second hand (though a second KB2040 is cheap anyway). I’m optimistic about using I2C and avoiding TRRS, but wanted to highlight it as an option since I hadn’t seen it mentioned anywhere else.

wahnfrieden2• 2 years ago

I have "XXL" size hands (some fingers push against tips of most XL gloves I try) and I find the Glove80 very comfortable fwiw

https://www.moergo.com

Switched from Kinesis Advantage after 15 years. Love the Pro Red config that's available out of box without expensive customization.

ndrake• 2 years ago

How long have you been using the glove80? I'm a smaller handed KA2 user but have been eyeing up switching to a glove80. Any complaints or trouble switching?

wahnfrieden2• 2 years ago

I think about a year now. I would like even lighter switches than Pro Red but they're much better than the default Kinesis ones that make my hands hurt. I find personally the lighter switches are more important than avoiding bottoming out, but that is controversial. It took me a couple weeks to regain my typing speed, not a huge learning curve like it was switching to KA in the first place. The travel case is also useful but quite large. It's more fragile feeling than Kinesis products, but not as bad as many 3d-printed DIY keyboards. The fragile feeling comes from its lightness which is also an asset.

qubyte2• 2 years ago

I designed my own for similar reasons, and it's interesting to see a somewhat similar position for the thumb keys. I optimised for hand/wrist position with minimal movement. However, I messed up the column stagger (off by one). Here's the writeup:

https://qubyte.codes/blog/why-did-i-create-a-keyboard

jogme14• 2 years ago

Wow, looks cool!

Interesting to see the thumb key positions are very similar to mine! Can you reach the outermost (outer regarding one half) thumb key without any issues?

Is your hand position like two columns for the middle finger instead of the pointer finger?

qubyte2• 2 years ago

Yup, I can reach all three keys in each thumb cluster without a stretch. It's actually only a slight movement because my digits are quite long. My middle and ring fingers rest on the columns which are shifted up.

donaldihunter• 2 years ago

I have been considering an ergonomic keyboard for a while and came pretty close to getting a sofle [0]. But I realised that I actually like having all the symbol keys. So now thinking about trying a keychron with alice layout [1]

[0] https://josefadamcik.github.io/SofleKeyboard/

[1] https://www.keychron.uk/products/keychron-k15-pro-alice-layo...

jogme14• 2 years ago

Putting a lot of things on layers instead of having them on hardware is not working for anyone so I can totally understand! What symbol keys are you missing from the sofle? I think most of the "missing" symbols are on the thumb keys.

jperras• 2 years ago

I thought the same, and went from an Apple standard keyboard to a Moonlander. Some time after that I went to a custom 36-key split ergo board.

It takes a little time to familiarize yourself, but you get very proficient with layers and home-row mods. The main benefit is that every single one of my fingers never has to move more than one key in any direction, and it has markedly improved my wrist health.

moneywoes2• 2 years ago

what does this custom layout look like?

nprateem• 2 years ago

It's like anything. You adapt. RSI forced me onto ergonomics so now I have all symbols on a layer. Going back to a normal keyboard now feels weird.

I have layers (most with home row mods) for:

- symbols (with long press-hold to simulate e.g. shift + keys like =, -, etc).

- navigation (vim cursor keys on rh home row, pg up/dn, etc below) & F keys

- numpad

- media & custom app keys (e.g. auto-fill password from my password manager, etc)

I also have long-press to switch window, copy, paste, undo (i.e. holding Z fires cmd-Z), combos for escape and caps.

TBH it's all muscle memory now so they might not be right.

Of course, there's a learning curve, but now I just use 34 keys (2 thumb keys each side, although dedicated shifts would be good instead of shift via home row mods which sometimes misfire).

The main thing is to make up your own keymap that makes sense. Forget trying to learn someone elses.

abhinavk• 2 years ago

On a staggered (aka standard) keyboard layout, common programming symbols like !@#$%&*()_{}:”<>? need Shift anyway. On these keyboard you simply hold Layer button with your thumb instead of Shift.

One advantage is that you can now put the symbols on the home row.

irisguy2• 2 years ago

why use the symbol keys?

relaxing• 2 years ago

How big is “large palms”?

jogme14• 2 years ago

It is relative ofc, but at the bottom of the main page of the website is a downloadable and printable layout, with it you can try if your palm "largeness" is compatible with it or not. See if you can comfortably reach all the keys and how does it feel to virtually type on it.

samatman3• 2 years ago

Looks great! I don't understand how you minimal-key-count types manage, but that's a me thing.

I'm taking the wrist pain comment as a jumping off point to remind those of us who type a lot (surely a comfortable majority!) that a major part of ergonomics is technique. Finding the right equipment for you is a part of that (I use an ergo split myself), but no keyboard can compensate for bad technique.

As an example, I always wince when I see a wrist rest involved in a setup. Wrists should not rest! Proper technique keeps the hands floating above the keyboard, with minimal or no wrist flexion (flexion is in toward the inner wrist) or wrist movement. Excursions from the home row should proceed from the elbows, not the wrists. Even a small amount of extension (opposite of flexion) is bad for you, stretching the tendons which are flexing to type keys.

Palms perpendicular with the keyboard, about two inches above it, and be sure that your rest position has no wrist extension! Flat is ideal, a bit of flexion is ok. Good keyboard technique is much the same between the piano and typing keyboards. Palms perpendicular means that if the keyboard surface is tilted toward you, fix that. A single-piece keeb should be level or point slightly toward the screen, and a split should be tented.

It's fine to rest your wrists on something: when you aren't typing. When you are, it is not fine at all. Once serious RSI and tendon inflammation sets in, there's no going back, it's a condition you'll be managing for years, if not the rest of your life.

If you're experiencing any discomfort typing, or after, by all means look into equipment. But also, please, immediately give some focus to your technique. Identify specific keyboard actions that violate the "do not move the hands from the wrist" rule, and focus on not doing them. Backspace is a common offender, to the point where I mapped caps lock to that key in response to shooting pains in my outer right wrist.

To land this back in the thread: laying out all the keys so that no hand (not wrist, hand) movement is necessary, like the keyboard in the Fine Article does, is certainly one way to prevent wrist movement. I think it's super cool that you worked out a spacing which is right for your hands, too. Even a keyboard like this can't help you if you type from a wrist-extended position, but it surely makes it much easier not to do that!

But for those of us with keyboards where you do move your hands, please, for the sake of your future self: move your hands from the elbows, not with wrist bends. It doesn't take long to get the hang of it, and the difference is night and day.

jogme14• 2 years ago

Thanks! Technique for sure does a lot, but after you find the right tool, it's just pain to go back.

clircle2• 2 years ago

If want to get into ortholinear boards, but also want a keyboard with lots of keys, I recommend the Xbows boards. I got an Xbows lite off Ebay for $60, and it's my current fave.

User232• 2 years ago

I like it, but like every other keyboard that I’ve ever seen the modifier keys are in the wrong spot.

As John Napier shows in his masterwork Hands, the hand is created such that the thumb easily and precisely works in opposition to the fingers. The thumb shouldn’t be working alone, it should always be in concert with the fingers. Furthermore, since there are four natural positions for the thumb, there should be four naturally positioned modifier keys under each thumb.

From there two obvious approaches come to mind. One is to stick to a more or less traditional layout with some minor tweaking like you see with existing boards, the only real difference being the location of shift, control, alt, and meta. The other is to go all in on chording. With a total of 8 modifiers where each thumb can reasonably hold down up to two adjacent, there’s enough chording opportunity to have no wrist movement whatsoever. Such a design might resemble a musical instrument far more than a computer keyboard.

opan• 2 years ago

What do you think of the thumb keys on the Pinky4 keyboard by tamanishi?

https://github.com/tamanishi/Pinky4

Even the leftmost one is about as far over as Alt on a typical keyboard.

User232• 2 years ago

Looks promising!

cryptonector• 2 years ago

Now if only I could get a giant hand mouse. Those don't really exist.

irisguy2• 2 years ago

does the iris look good?: https://keeb.io/products/iris-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keybo...

moneywoes2• 2 years ago

any solid portable options?

Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

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