Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

https://phys.org/news/2024-03-rare-eleventh-century-astrolabe-discovery.html

by wglb • 2 years ago

78 29 2 years ago

gadilif• 2 years ago

This is... not a surprise. Jews have lived in Islamic countries for centuries, and had very good relations with their Islamic neighbors. In fact, there are many Jews with Arab origins living in Israel today. Unfortunately, after WWII, most Arab countries forced the Jews living there to leave (mostly to Israel). There are minor Jewish communities in some Islamic states still, but in recent decades this is very rare (there is, obviously, a large minority of arabs, both muslims and christians, living in Israel. Yes, as first class citizens - I'm not talking about the occupied territories, but Israel within the 1967 lines).

hdlothia3• 2 years ago

During the rule of al-Mutawakkil, the tenth Abbasid Caliph, numerous restrictions reinforced the second-class citizen status of dhimmīs and forced their communities into ghettos.[15] For instance, they were required to distinguish themselves from their Muslim neighbors by their dress.[16] They were not permitted to build new churches or synagogues or repair old churches according to the Pact of Umar.

Is this an accurate portrayal of the good relations you describe or an exception? It's hard to find unbiased accounts of what Jewish-Islamic relations were like pre-israel, especially since both sides have an agenda to push.

g8oz• 2 years ago

And yet this hardly compares to what happened in Europe during the medieval period.

someotherperson2• 2 years ago

There are examples of widespread persecution, but this is incredibly low effort. Al-Mutawakkil (who was Uzbek and Greek, for what it's worth) was a psychopath that didn't represent the general Islamic view. The pressures he placed on Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and even other internal Islamic sects was not a popular view. Christians were regularly teaming up with Muslims to riot against the bad leadership[0].

The idea that it was enforced is even more dubious. The decrees were racist, sure, but unlike his more insane personalized antics (like when he ordered a holy Zoroastrian tree be cut down and shipped to him so he can build his house out of it[1]) the vast majority of the Islamic world didn't agree or support any of it and it was unlikely that any of it was actually enforced. He had little support outside of the Turkic world and a North African militia group, and even that was far and few inbetween.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homs_revolts_(854%E2%80%93855)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypress_of_Kashmar

msteffen• 2 years ago

I do think that your comment almost understates the relationship: in 1917, an incredible 40% of Baghdad's population was Jewish.

The nature of historical Jewish-Islamic relations is obviously a matter of great political contention (especially now). It varied depending on the politics of the time and place—sometimes rich and peaceful (and indeed better than Europe) and sometimes tragic and violent—but for anyone casually curious, there is a dedicated Wikipedia article that I think is pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Musl...

resolutebat• 2 years ago

Describing Arabs in Israel as first-class citizens is a bit starry-eyed, although they're certainly better off than their second-class non-citizen cousins across the Green Line though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel#Racism_agains...

farseer• 2 years ago

The fact that Israel carried out an intimidation campaign against Iraqi Jews to force them to immigrate is pretty much a mainstream historical discourse.[1]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bomb...

bawolff• 2 years ago

The source you link to seems to indicate that this is not an accepted historical fact but very much disputed who precisely did what.

mcmoor• 2 years ago

And I thought that enforcement is a direct retribution because of a certain nation being created in 1948. The relation certainly plunges downhill after that.

DoItToMe81• 2 years ago

I've known Israelis and Arab Israelis. I would NOT call them 'first class citizens', there is discrimination codified into law and most state entities.

bushbaba• 2 years ago

Jewish Arab relations historically were ok, not something I’d call “very good”. Some paces better than others, some times better than others. Generally though Jews were still second class citizens in Arab nations.

Here’s a wiki article that captures some the past issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world

wslh2• 2 years ago

Probably most people ignore the good relationship between Jews and Arabs because it is not taught or communicated, sadly, often. They participated in math, medicine, astronomy, and philosophy.

hersko• 2 years ago

From what i understand, at the time this thing was made, Islamic society was more advanced and way better for jews than Christian Europe.

myth_drannon• 2 years ago

Right, while the Christian Europe was amidst a Dark Ages and was torturing and burning Jews and others, Islam was in its Golden Age period. Too bad it was short and Mongol hordes ended it, leaving a significant mark on the Islamic culture.

Just realized we are witnessing at the moment two wars (there are more, but these two just get significant news coverage) by cultures who were scarred by Mongols - Russia and Islamic Empire

cess11• 2 years ago

Yes. And zionism as a global political force is in large part, possibly mainly, funded and promoted by christian zionists, and not by jews.

Comment above implies a dichotomy between arab and jew which is wildly ahistorical.

To an extent the migration of jews to Israel from arab countries post-WWII was done by Israel, infamously the 'magic carpet' from Yemen for example.

As an aside, the urge among zionists to claim that muslims are the worst, OG colonizers is probably related to zionism being an explicitly colonial project, as stated by pretty much every influential early zionist. Cecil Rhodes was begged to help out due to his experience in this area, and the intimate relation between apartheid South Africa and Israel was in part made possible due to this similarity.

ars4• 2 years ago

It's probably not taught in the US, but it's certainly taught in Israel, but they also include the periods after that when Arabs started massacring and prosecuting Jews.

It's not a single time period, a lot of stuff happened, and the relationship changed - and not because of Israel (history didn't start in 1948).

wslh2• 2 years ago

Israel is tiny and not influential in terms of global education. It is also studied in Jewish schools around the globe but also this is tiny comparing to the world itself.

aprilthird20213• 2 years ago

1000% the current state of Islamo-Judaic relations is because of Israel. I really cannot fathom what alternate reality is otherwise.

How you want to decide who to blame for what is a different story, but the fact is what it is. History didn't begin in 1948, but the formation of Israel (which began before WWII) is what kicked off the current colder than ice relations between the two religions.

seanhunter• 2 years ago

Sorry for the sidetrack, but that is such an incredibly beautiful object, with those delicate etched hyperbolae. So much skill and craft went into making it and you can see that it is a superbly-designed practical tool that was well-used. It's quite humbling to see things like that.

Rare eleventh-century astrolabe discovery shows Islamic–Jewish sci. exchange

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