Ask HN: What's the State of Ageism?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39700312

by badrabbit • 2 years ago

14 50 2 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

At what age should one start worrying about ageism and being hireable?

*Assuming a technical career path is chosen and there is progressive career and skill development.

leed25d2• 2 years ago

I am 77 years old and I have been programming pretty much continuously since 1974.

mech4226• 2 years ago

Awesome :-) Hope I get that far :-D

Congrats!

VirusNewbie2• 2 years ago

I hope you can tell some stories! If not here, you should definitely set up a blog to write down your thoughts. I find it really interesting to read and hear about how the industry has evolved over the years.

leed25d2• 2 years ago

I started with 80-column punch cards. Things started changing, and now here we are with AI.

gcheong5• 2 years ago

Great, I haven’t had the same experience and I’m only 56 so any advice you have would be much appreciated.

TheAlchemist• 2 years ago

I hope you just hit 'reply' accidentally, and you're editing your response now to tell the story !

jandrewrogers• 2 years ago

I have never really seen it for any developer still in the game, regardless of age. Many developers kind of check out at some point, but that isn’t ageism. Some people never lose the fire and skill is cumulative.

mech4226• 2 years ago

It used to be most programmers change to other careers within 10 years. Not sure if that's still true, but if so - I think it means most won't have to worry about being around long enough for ageism to be a problem...

dragonwriter3• 2 years ago

It used to be most programmers change to other careers within 10 years.

I don't think that's true, unless you are counting the more-senior roles which tended to require programming experience (e.g., Systems Analyst in many schemes) as “other careers” rather than just a step up the information systems career ladder.

swah• 2 years ago

I'm not worried about losing the fire, I'm worried about not having food on the plate for the kids...

thiago_fm2• 2 years ago

No age, but that supposes you do networking, have soft-skills and is likeable.

The amount of opportunities available to me just grow year after year, because I get to know more people (which also move to different companies), that would like to work with me in the future.

Just be a person that ships, makes things work, in a friendly mood and you are set for life.

People you work with also grow in their careers, which means that often enough, they make the calls on who gets hired and who doesn't.

I think that during your 50s, you should have built a good "base," though, like paying off your mortgage. You should have more leeway to actually take life in a less demanding way, so perhaps do some consulting or not work full-time and earn a living to retire in peace.

badrabbit3• 2 years ago

you do networking, have soft-skills and is likeable.

No networking, soft skills sure but not social skills, depends?

Asssuming these variables stay the same how does age affect hirability and at what age?

thiago_fm2• 2 years ago

Then good luck.

In any area, you'll suffer "ageism" while doing this because you won't have the same energy and potential as a fresh graduate.

The problem isn't your age(ageism), but the fact that you haven't managed to truly achieve seniority.

Sure, you could have gotten your senior title within 3 years from graduating, but you don't have the soft-skills that are needed to have a longer career. This applies to any area, it is expected in nowadays society that you don't behave like you live in your moms basement as you are older.

If you behave well and is generally nice, clear and have good work ethics, there's no way people won't like you and vouch for you in new positions. Sometimes they will get promoted and will want to have people around them that have worked with them before, and will want to invite you to their company.

Meanwhile a company might be ok with a 22 year old struggling to communicate with others or keep their supervisor up-to-date, they won't have that kind of patience for a 40 year old+ that has been working for decades.

And by the way, anyone can get those skills, just study and practice like you do with coding.

dsattt2• 2 years ago

Just be a person that ships, makes things work, in a friendly mood and you are set for life.

This is the biggest lie in tech. Doing this will keep you overworked because you’re reliable. You will never get promoted and when you try to get another job you will be so good everybody will be afraid of you.

gnz112• 2 years ago

So be unreliable and terrible? That doesn’t sound better.

jf22• 2 years ago

I'm sorry you've had experiences that made you think this.

dsattt2• 2 years ago

It’s not about age, it’s about experience. Once you get to 15-20 years nobody will want to hire you anymore.

Look into it, it’s real. The people saying otherwise are either lifers at their company or lying.

AnimalMuppet2• 2 years ago

Not a lifer, and not lying. See tacostakohashi's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39702882

But in many areas your statement is true.

codingdave• 2 years ago

It is not about either - it is about attitude and cost. If someone with 30 years experience demands a higher salary for the same skill level as someone with 10 years experience, and also bring in an attitude of being a know-it-all because of those extra years... they won't get hired.

There is also the old cliché that there is a difference between 10 years of experience and one year of experience repeated 10 times. If you are a coder who has repeated the same couple years of experience 10-15 times, then you might be over-estimating your own value.

So as you get older, it takes some humility to truly look at yourself and determine your own value. This is why I moved away from coding and towards product management - I'm a decent coder and people appreciate having me on the team, but my value lies in the lessons learned over the years outside of coding. So I seek roles where I can use that experience, and not the decades of coding experience on mostly dead tech stacks.

giantg23• 2 years ago

I'm plenty humble. I also realize people with 5 years experience are about the same skill as me at 10 years. I also know my prospects are not good.

ipaddr2• 2 years ago

We act like 10 years of 1 or 2 years experience is the same as someone with one or two experience. Someone who has worked at that many places brings experience of different ways to do things. They also get up to speed quicker than someone with 10 years at one place.

Same company will fire someone after 3/4 years because they haven't moved up.

gnz112• 2 years ago

Ageism is literally about age.

tacostakohashi• 2 years ago

I think what looks like ageism is often not (but probably sometimes is).

It's more that, for most business programming roles, experience stops being cumulative at some point. For example, for a Java developer, 5-7 years is probably about where experience tops out, and beyond that it doesn't really help if you have 15 years experience in Java, or you have experience in Perl before you did Java, etc.

Cumulative experience of 10, 20, 30 years is really only useful for highly specialized roles (writing compilers, database engines, operating systems), management, etc.

I would worry less about ageism, and more about working on a track where experience is valued.

AnimalMuppet2• 2 years ago

Exactly this.

If you have 20 years of experience, you need to be working for the kind of place where 20 years of experience has more value than 7 years of experience, or else you need to accept getting paid like you only have 7 years of experience. That's not ageism, that's just economics.

Another area where experience can have value: embedded systems.

giantg23• 2 years ago

Eh, I have over 10 years in and I'm still not competitive for entry level jobs at entry level prices.

VirusNewbie2• 2 years ago

I think you're right overall but too optimistic about timelines. I think about 10 years of experience or more is where things start to level out. Depending on how you count my experience, i'm either at ~16 or 20+. I regularly learn from people with 10 years of experience.

I don't think I can say the same about people with only 5 YoE.

ipaddr2• 2 years ago

If you think everything tops out at 5-7 years you are no where near correct. 5-7 years developers are still juniors who have spent time down one path and know it really well. So well that they become opinionated that this is the best way. You don't turn into a senior until your wiped that mindset away. Until you become un-opinionated you are still a junior. At 7 years I knew it alL, it took awhile to reach a point where I know nothing but I am open to all opinions and ways to do something. Once you know it all work back to an open mindset

aristofun• 2 years ago

It’s exactly becausr of myths like that we can’t grow our salary linearly with experience.

Even if the quality and value of our work _can_ grow proportionally.

I wish there were employers who understand that.

giantg23• 2 years ago

I'm in my 30s. It's not so much ageism, but my employability is much lower than it was in the past. Now I have a family (higher benefit costs, less off hours support), I am not able to learn things as quickly, and I've lost a lot of motivation since past grinding never paid off.

So yeah, my age is a problem, but it's not ageism.

al_borland• 2 years ago

Legally speaking, the protected class related to age in the US is 40+. Assuming that number wasn’t plucked out of the sky, I’d say that would be when you can start to worry.

As long as you’re actually competent I don’t think it would be too much of an issue. For someone who comes off as green with their skills, a company is more likely to take a gamble on someone young than someone older.

badrabbit3• 2 years ago

Thanks, that actually answers my question, 40 sounds like the right ballpark number.

JohnFen2• 2 years ago

You should never be worried about it, just aware of it. In my experience, ageism is really only a serious issue in specific segments of the software industry. Outside of those, you'll be just fine.

gcheong5• 2 years ago

Which ones?

JohnFen2• 2 years ago

Mostly SV/FAANG-style companies.

atleastoptimal• 2 years ago

Ageism is inherent to the human experience. When we see a 21 year old our brain is filled with abstract visions of the future and potential. When we see a 35 year old we expect them to have completed their journeys and have a firm entrenchment in their hierarchies. Seeing a 50 year old we expect them to have experience they are passing down. Failing to meet these expectations carries an implicit discrimination that is innate.

Desafinado• 2 years ago

I think it can be location and company specific too. In some cities hiring is hard to do, so they take what they can get. And some company cultures value experience and stability, others like younger devs.

My experience has been that most devs in their 40s and 50s can run circles around those in their 20s and early 30s. If someone is already good in their 20s they're likely a savant. TL;DR the biggest thing is managing your career intelligently. I think there's more risk when you approach 50, but the same is true in every industry.

trashface• 2 years ago

As a 49 year old unemployed programmer (5 years now), I _should_ have started worrying about it at 35. Didn't really see it coming TBH, but my life also got complicated in other respects.

Ask HN: What's the State of Ageism?

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