Programming, Motherfucker Do you speak it?

http://programming-motherfucker.com/

by skeptrune • 2 years ago

69 40 2 years ago

programming-motherfucker.com

willcate• 2 years ago

Does not seem to be anything behind the Codegram link

29athrowaway2• 2 years ago

Another jewel from that author

https://web.archive.org/web/20110702162929/https://zedshaw.c...

cmiles743• 2 years ago

I remember reading this when it was first posted (probably to HN). It's been a long time but I think Zed still has a point. I've also had to revisit these issues with product managers or junior developers.

29athrowaway2• 2 years ago

Only junior developers? Developers across all levels of seniority can suffer from these problems.

SuperNinKenDo• 2 years ago

That was cathartic.

Understanding statistics is a curse, because as the author states, you often understand that you don't know something.

You can prove to somebody that their way of measuring something is complete horeshit, but if you can't come up with an alternative (because ypu know better), then you'll find people telling you "well we have to go with what ee have". Like dude. I literally showed you you don't have anything, you can't measure the thing you think you can, this measurement is lying to you.

Sometimes institutional pressures account for this, someone has to show their manager something even if it's bullshit, but you get the same reaction when that isn't the case. People really can't accept the idea of not knowing something, that's just not a concept they can grok.

zer00eyz2• 2 years ago

Are we gonna do this? Lets do this!

Containers: they dont "contain" anything at a systems level (docker needs root) so the thing they are containing is the bullshit code and glue you put together and want to run in production.

VS code, Github, linked in. Fuck all these things. Fuck Microsoft. Fuck copilot (and the fact that most of the code it wrote got pulled out of production).

Fuck the cloud. Listen Scaling is cool and all but pissing away money cause you cant write scalable software is not.

Fuck wayland. Yes I said it. You know what, I love you all for building linux desktop but all of you having pissing matches about bending wayland to your way and not updating your code... linux desktops still suck cause you cant get along.

Fuck apple. Fuck your nonsense with the EU. I love you and will still buy your proucts cause I need a working laptop with a *nix terminal but I would like to part ways. (fix your shit linux desktop)

Fuck google. You were good, you were "do no evil" but now you make MS look like the nice guy. The fact that MS is stealing your browser tabs is just 2 flavors of shitty and I am amused.

FUCK VC's. Go fast break things became go fast be dumb. The quality of engineer has gone down as you take your investors money and shove it into AWS and Azrure so your personal portfolios go up. Dont think we dont all know you own those stocks, we own them too.

Fuck cryrpto. You could have been good, you fucked it up. Mt Gox part 47 as we have to have centralized services that fuck the whole thing up.

Fuck you nvidia. Gaming used to be fun, but you sold out to corporate stooges.

Fuck AI: well I should say FUCK ML, were not gonna get AI any time soon and thats for the best. AI is a con that Elizabeth Holmes would be proud of..

If I missed your thing, well fuck that too.

To paraprhase the old batman: our industry needs an enema

Jtsummers• 2 years ago

Fuck apple. Fuck your nonsense with the EU. I love you and will still buy your proucts cause I need a working laptop with a *nix terminal but I would like to part ways. (fix your shit linux desktop)

You just want a terminal? That's easy, no desktop needed. Or just run a terminal on top of X or Wayland, no need to deal with all the desktop manager options out there. Pretty straightforward, not hard. Slightly harder than whining on HN though.

zer00eyz2• 2 years ago

> Or just run a terminal on top of X or Wayland

Did you miss fuck Wayland? I am only half kidding. I appreciate Waylands technical merit. I think Wayland is an example of why more nerds dont make it to management.

I do run an old Macbook air for browser and terminal and IDE. All my dev is done on a remote box(s). I wont say anything bad about proxmox for dev instances ;)

cmews• 2 years ago

Not sure why this was downvoted, but it made me laugh :)

skeptrune7• 2 years ago

AI is a con that Elizabeth Holmes would be proud of..

:joy

cmiles743• 2 years ago

Seems like a pretty good Zed impression to me. ;)

tamimio2• 2 years ago

You forgot one: SaaS

jauntywundrkind2• 2 years ago

It's bizarre & freaky that any kind of dissent is just a blanket magnet for everyone else who loves holding grudges.

It devalues the individual complaints that there is such a broad presence of anti-* activists ready to gripe.

y_dfekt• 2 years ago

This sounds like the Ed Norton rant from 25th hour. <3

mcnamaratw• 2 years ago

In 20 years, expect daily stand-up Programming Motherfucker meetings.

bastijn• 2 years ago

"Say bug again. SAY BUG again! And I dare you, I double dare you motherfucker! Say bug one more time."

Guthur2• 2 years ago

Some things never change, one of them seems to be Zed Shaw.

I think he's too edgy even for me, but it's nice to have something stable I suppose...

skeptrune7• 2 years ago

I had no idea this guy was such a prolific author, but am glad I found out!

Guthur2• 2 years ago

Given today's corporate environment it's about his only option, he'd certainly struggle to get a salaried position.

__jonas2• 2 years ago

This feels extraordinarily 2011

skeptrune7• 2 years ago

Then take me back to 2011!

__jonas2• 2 years ago

You will love this

https://bestmotherfucking.website/

Something very distinctly “of its time”, I feel.

NikolaNovak• 2 years ago

Eh. It's cute.

But I learned to distinguish between "programming as a hobby" and "programming toward some productive purpose / as a job".

If I'm tinkering on a 1976 project car in my garage for 10 years, that's one thing. If I'm working for Mazda designing the next production model, that process is going to look and feel different! There'll be more structure and team work and coordination in one of those activities!

I can "program, motherfucker" for fun as much as I want to, all day long. Nobody is stopping me!

If somebody else is paying me to accomplish something on their money, schedule, and risk... There'll be some processes and procedures and accountability.

The two are not mutually exclusive. And they're not specific to programming - many activities have a "weekend hobby" and a "corporate drone" version - and everything in between. We don't have it particularly bad either - difference between me playing flight Sims or even flying a cessna at local club, and an airline pilot is far more stark, in terms of processes and control. And frankly, it's mostly the "I just want to program, motherfucker!" That screw it up for the rest of us, and half the stupid management methodologies and communication failures and misunderstandings are because of folks who are too cool for school and to coordinate with their team mates.

I just don't think it's that "cool" and "edgy" to think we are some particularly special snowflake type of rebel.

(I might just be getting old though, I'm sure the 15 year old me would be all over that :->)

skeptrune7• 2 years ago

Agreed, moderation with a mix of both approaches is likely the best. This is an extreme reaction to another extreme and I the sweet-spot is probably somewhere in the middle.

cmiles743• 2 years ago

I hear you and I agree. It's the middle column in the chart that's the problem. Maybe the label on that one should be "enshittification" because that's where it becomes less about solving problems and more like busy-work (at best).

karaterobot2• 2 years ago

We are tired of being told we're socialy awkward idiots

I would advise a different response to address this concern than the one provided by this website. I think Zed Shaw's obviously a very talented programmer, but this is the kind of thing that doesn't earn the respect of the people he's trying to convince, and does more to reinforce a stereotype that works against his goals. You want the people paying you money to think of you as a reliable solution rather than a potential problem. Wearing a t-shirt with a gun pointing at, presumably... your boss?... is not the right way.

skeptrune7• 2 years ago

I don't have the full context, but I took it as ironic and more of a fun social social call to action than a slogan for trying to drive change. Maybe it was meant more literally though.

zac23or3• 2 years ago

is the kind of thing that doesn't earn the respect of the people he's trying to convince

For me, he's not trying to convince anyone, just complaining, venting about what he saw happening.

ordu• 2 years ago

I would advise to presume that the author knows exactly what he wants to say, particularly that it was a deliberate decision to choose socially awkward form for a message "we are tired of being told we're socialy awkward idiots".

Even if the author is not that sharp, it is much more exciting and revealing with the assumption that he is exactly that sharp.

karaterobot2• 2 years ago

I'm convinced he knows what he wants to say, but not convinced he'll get what he wants as a result of saying it. Time will tell if there is a monumental shift in the perception of programmers, and history will tell us if it can be traced directly back to this Pulp Fiction parody t-shirt.

tamimio2• 2 years ago

I fully support this message, would be better if it was “Engineering, mother..” so it’s more generic. Add to that too the typical useless meetings too. Part of me feels that those methodologies and other “team building activities” are just a sugar coated systematic humiliation rituals.

rednafi• 2 years ago

Managers need to eat too.

skeptrune7• 2 years ago

Why flag this?

zac23or3• 2 years ago

HN and Zed are not friends https://www.zedshaw.com/blog/2018-03-25-the-billionaires-vs-...

zac23or3• 2 years ago

This reminds me of XGH: eXtreme Go Horse. https://medium.com/@dekaah/22-axiomas-of-the-extreme-go-hors...

People here will probably criticize the programming, motherfucker. Zed doesn't like HN and HN doesn't like Zed.

But I understand Zed's feeling. For example, a team had 2 years to create a new feature at a company where I worked. 15 days for delivery, nothing was working. My friend was rushed to do the job... pure programming, motherfucker. All processes failed, and in the end a lone programmer had to solve the problem. I've seen this happen many, many times, so I know this is no exception.

When I was young I worried about everything, but now, with 25 years working as a dev, I don't worry about chaos, politics, anything. For me, the sea can catch fire so I can eat a good fried fish, but there are people who have an allergic reaction, and talk about it a lot or try to fix these things (without the power to do that). But the fact is that life is very complex, reality is very strange, it doesn't fit into a script or methodology. If you have the power to fix things, and it's possible, fix it, if not, relax.

skeptrune7• 2 years ago

Yeah, XGO seems like a very similar vibe lol. I did like the simplicity of the message on the site and idea. It's not a full solution, but there's something to be said for trying to be in the middle of total anarchy and strict processes.

If the sense of anarchy is completely lost then it's worth at least thinking about whether or not it's a thing worth correcting /shrug.

ChrisArchitect2• 2 years ago

(2011) I think?

Also available on http://progmofo.com/

ChrisArchitect2• 2 years ago

Related:

Programming Methodology Framework aka PMF

https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-dulaunoy-programming-m...

bartimus• 2 years ago

First of all. There's no point in programming for the sake of programming. You're either a developer developing products or you're building something that someone else is designing.

The age-old problem with development in big corporations is the following:

How it should be. The agile way:

developer <-> client

What actually happens:

developer <-> the people seeking a role between you and the client <-> client

These people can be PMs, functional designers, UX-ers, architects etc

If your company doesn't have Agile in its DNA, Scrum - if done properly - actually offers the solution. It forces a team of developers and a client (the product owner) to work together directly. The problem is, however, that these people still find ways to elbow themselves into the process. So you see many companies doing "their own version of Scrum". They implement SAFe etc. You suddenly have to deal with things that are not about the client needing a product.