Vape-o-nomics: Why Everything is Addictive Now [video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuTQbOo3Y30

by thm • 2 years ago

29 35 2 years ago

bearjaws• 2 years ago

I don't entirely agree with going after SaaS as an addictive "thing".

SaaS solved the issue of: I want continually improved and supported software, but I don't want to pay $5000 (or whatever fee makes sense) upfront for it.

I used to work for a CD / DVD / Blu ray mastering company that powered pretty much every major movie release (mastering), and every consumer CD burner (drivers).

Meanwhile, people call in complaining that X is broken, on a version we released 6 years ago and no longer maintain. Since we had to float 2 years of revenue per customer, a license was around $3000, meaning smaller shops hated upgrading...

To claim that now that they're familiar with our software, all their processes use it, that they're "addicted" is quite the leap.

AlexandrB• 2 years ago

I think this makes a ton of sense for corporate customers and specialized, expensive software packages, but the model has trickled down to weather apps and text editors. Software that didn't/wouldn't cost more than ~$50 in an "up front purchase" model, but now requires an ongoing subscription to keep using. Many apps using a SaaS business model also don't like to let you manage your own data and insist or at least nudge you towards storing data in their cloud - which locks you in a lot more.

aidenn04• 2 years ago

In addition, B2C subscription software incentivizes making the customer dependent upon your software. If I pay up-front for software, the business is agnostic as to how much or little I use the software. If I subscribe to a SaaS service, they are incentivized to manipulate me to use the software more.

gruez3• 2 years ago

but the model has trickled down to weather apps and text editors. Software that didn't/wouldn't cost more than ~$50 in an "up front purchase" model, but now requires an ongoing subscription to keep using.

How about using a free text editor or weather app instead? Feels weird to complain about subscription models when there's free first party weather apps for ios and android, and most of the popular text editors are free.

Yujf• 2 years ago

I agree that in a way it makes sense for a lot of software. But as a consumer who just wants something to use once in a while it does not make any sense. It just feels like you are being milked.

I think there are 2 issues. The first is that if you dont use a piece of software very often it does not make sense to have the subscription because it is super expensive compared to the value you get. The second issue is that you make your workflow depended on something and that gives them so much pricing power and you can't stop paying because it would be a lot of work to move to something else.

Music streaming is a good model for me because I like to listen to lots of different music and if I bought all of it it would be much more expensive. I also don't feel locked in because I backup my playlists and listening history so if spotify dissappeared tomorrow I still have everything and just move to somrthing else. But I don't like netflix because I am not big on tv shows and I just want to watch one show every couple months.

dingnuts• 2 years ago

the problem with music streaming is that music randomly disappears from the sites! I remember the first time I tried to queue up an album on Spotify and it was just gone. Heartbreaking.

Nope, not worth it. Bandcamp lets you listen to albums before you buy them, and once you own them, you have the files and they can't just disappear.

not to mention that you can't even hear music on streaming sites that has unauthorized samples in it, which is a sort of absurd and related topic (that it's illegal to make some kinds of art) but practically speaking I just want to listen to Neil Cicierega in the same place as everything else.

aidenn04• 2 years ago

Seconded (though I subscribe to Netflix and not Spotify).

As a prelude, I should note that I strongly prefer listening to albums over singles, which puts me in a minority, so the following probably doesn't apply to you:

I've been purchasing music since the early 90s, and specifically on CDs since the mid 90s. Currently one month of Spotify costs about the same as a new album, and 2-10 used albums, depending on what sort of deal I can get.

In a counterfactual world in which Spotify existed in 1995, Let's say I purchased mostly new albums for an average of 1.5 albums[1] per month instead of paying for Spotify. I would end up with 342 albums, which is a pretty decent variety. I just checked my library, and I don't own quite that many. Part of this is due to how @#$# expensive CDs were when I was at my poorest[2]

1: This is probably low, because I might pick up 10 albums for $10 in one visit to a flea-market or via a craigslist find, while I'm not going to go on a triple-digit new-CD binge.

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_price_fixing

gruez3• 2 years ago

I agree that in a way it makes sense for a lot of software. But as a consumer who just wants something to use once in a while it does not make any sense. It just feels like you are being milked.

What's the alternative? I suspect users would be equally upset if they were charged per use of the software (eg. $5 per photo edited).

j4yav3• 2 years ago

I might be an exception here but I’m actually pretty happy turning on and off a one month subscription twice a year for something I use that often. For things that offer a trial that resets after a few months, it actually ends up free.

eesmith• 2 years ago

At https://youtu.be/XuTQbOo3Y30?t=1391 the speaker agrees with you: "Particularly for freelancers and small businesses then, the appeal to this model is actually pretty clear. Previously, access to such software required substantial investment. But now it was relatively manageable overhead which could be paid for over time."

The counter-argument, at https://youtu.be/XuTQbOo3Y30?t=1433, is that once you have a large set of documents in a proprietary format (in the Adobe example) and built-up muscle memory then you "addicted" in the sense you are dependent on the service and can't easily switch without a lot of effort, and the only option is to go cold-turkey.

alright2565• 2 years ago

SaaS solved the issue of: I want continually improved and supported software, but I don't want to pay $5000 (or whatever fee makes sense) upfront for it.

Jetbrains solved this is in an even better and consumer-friendly way:

- You buy the software on a recurring subscription and always get the latest version

- If you stop your subscription, you can continue using a year-old version of the software forever

This aligns everyone's incentives! Jetbrains is incentivized to invest in R&D, because they don't want customers to decide the older version is fine and not continue their subscription. The customers know that regardless of what happens, they will always have access to the software they need.

8f2ab37a-ed6c• 2 years ago

Same with cheap printers being a form of addiction creation, that's a real stretch of the analogy. It's a business model where most of the charges are backloaded, that's it.

_teyd• 2 years ago

The vape pen is the one object that contains within it the trajectories and tensions that defines the modern world, really? Even if you're trying to illustrate an overall point about how irredeemably evil contemporary capitalism is, surely the cell phone is a better example..

aidenn04• 2 years ago

They certainly touch on that around 10 minutes in. In addition, this is 1/3 of 3 videos, so I'll give TFV's author the benefit of the doubt for now.

j4yav3• 2 years ago

I’m not familiar with the channel but it seemed like they were willing to torture any analogy to get to whatever point they wanted to make, was that just a bad first impression?

thuuuomas• 2 years ago

Wow, that’s insightful. I bet nobody’s ever examined contemporary capitalism thru the lens of the cellphone before!

j4yav3• 2 years ago

Surely there’s a middle ground where you can make an interesting, insightful video but don’t have to build it around the seemingly obviously incorrect conclusion that the vape pen is the single most defining object of our era.

cassianoleal• 2 years ago

34:29 Today's Sponsor: Copilot!

steveklabnik4• 2 years ago

Copilot the fitness app, not Copilot the AI tool.

Shadowmist• 2 years ago

a fitness app with a $99/month subscription fee.

friend_and_foe• 2 years ago

It didn't start with vapes, addiction has been known for a long long time to be very lucrative. The opium wars are a not so distant historical example. Cigarette companies were the big boys in the 20th century, and they successfully turned food addictive in the 80s and 90s, to the point that now you can't buy anything packaged that isn't designed to be addictive. Vapes started as probably the least addictive addictive thing in legal trade, a stop smoking product and a very effective one at that. This phenomenon didn't start with elf bars.

chihuahua• 2 years ago

I can buy many food products that are packaged but not designed to be addictive. For example: oatmeal, canned tuna, pasta (dry), mustard, etc.

dmonitor• 2 years ago

those are more in the category of "food ingredients", not premade food items.

although you might be surprised how much HFCS goes in condiments like ketchup

steveklabnik4• 2 years ago

The video does not claim that vapes have started this, only that they are emblematic of something that is happening to more and more industries. Cigarette companies are directly mentioned, as well as a minor bit about food.

a stop smoking product and a very effective one at that

The complexity around this is one of the points in the video.

Vape-o-nomics: Why Everything is Addictive Now [video]

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