Higher Intakes of Potassium and Magnesium, but Not Lower Sodium, Reduce CVD Risk

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33477824/

by birriel • 3 years ago

72 79 3 years ago

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is in line with what I've heard about sodium in the diet, which is that it's not bad in itself, but in proportion to your potassium intake.

I'd guess most Americans are deficient in magnesium and potassium, especially anyone who exercises regularly. If you're a male athlete, your actual magnesium need for example is about 800mg, which is twice the RDA of 400mg, which you're probably also not meeting.

I've helped people cure their chronic anxiety by noticing that they ran for an hour most days, and were taking zero supplemental magnesium.

BiteCode_dev• 3 years ago

I thought 300mg supplementation was the max your body could absorb each day.

If you do a lot of sport, you should take more than that?

pc863• 3 years ago

I don't know about magnesium specifically but I know there were experiments with calcium showing that supplementation both a) didn't absorb 100% of whatever you took, and b) had an upper limit for what could be absorbed over N hours. At a certain point you just have to eat food with calcium in it. I wouldn't be remotely surprised to find that's true for most/all micronutrients.

Supplementation can help, sometimes, but will always be a fraction as impactful as a healthy, well-rounded diet.

danaris2• 3 years ago

Even to the extent that that may be true, it is going to be an average: different people's bodies will be different in what they can absorb, and the same body at different times will be different. Sometimes dramatically, particularly if you have a deficiency.

hinkley4• 3 years ago

Most endurance athletes I knew equated bananas with potassium and carbs, but they're not a bad source of magnesium either.

sound14• 3 years ago

Bananas are okay, nothing magical, speaking as a pretty good badminton player. Genetics is a big deal in athletics. You have to supplement whatever your parents didn't pass on to you.

nobleach3• 3 years ago

Bananas are a passable source of potassium only when ripe. That quickly converts to sugar in a day or two. By the time light brown spots appear, most potassium is gone. Sunflower seeds and avocados are far better sources.

pc863• 3 years ago

Where do you get 800mg of magnesium from? I just checked my multi-vitamin and it has 0 potassium and only 120mg of magnesium - my guess is to limit how much you end up just pissing out the first few hours after taking it.

kragen3• 3 years ago

coincidentally i spent much of monday investigating the answers to that question

supposedly magnesium costs about 25¢/kg as caustic-burned magnesia https://pubs.usgs.gov/myb/vol1/2018/myb1-2018-magnesium-comp..., but that includes lots of impurities, probably including lead; you wouldn't want to eat it

the cheapest reasonably food-grade source i've found is probably food-grade magnesium chloride for supplements; it's hard to tell how much you're getting because magnesium chloride exists in various hydration states

here in argentina it costs 3.6 dollars per kilogram, which works out to somewhere between 11 and 36 dollars per kilogram of magnesium

the carbonate, the dead-burned oxide, and the hydroxide are also sold by the kilogram as food supplements; they don't have the hydration problem, and the prices i came up with were respectively

- 20 dollars per kg of carbonate and thus 70 dollars per kg of magnesium

- 15 dollars per kg of dead-burned food-grade oxide and thus 24 dollars per kg of magnesium

- 23 dollars per kg of hydroxide and thus 54 dollars per kg of magnesium

other non-food-grade sources i found in my search included galvanic protection anodes for hot-water heaters (35–44 dollars per kg); magnesium sulfate for bath salts, laxative, or fertilizer (17 dollars per kg of magnesium for the fertilizer, 24 for the bath salts); dolomite as fertilizer (20 dollars per kg of magnesium); and magnesium carbonate chalk as exercise equipment (91 dollars per kg of magnesium)

(my reason for this search was for formulating carbon-neutral cements, not supplementing my dietary magnesium, so i'd be delighted to find a non-food-grade source that was closer to 24¢ than 24 dollars)

24 dollars per kg of the oxide is 2.4¢ per gram

the chloride is highly water-soluble (you have to store it in a hermetically sealed container to prevent deliquescence; i bought a kilogram hermetically sealing jar from the health food store) so it's very easy to add to food. unfortunately it makes the food taste like horse shit, or more precisely like chewing on rubber bands, because those magnesium ions are extremely bitter

the oxide and hydroxide are almost perfectly insoluble in water, and the carbonate nearly so, and consequently they will not make your food taste like an accident in a quinine factory. they're just a little chalky. stomach acid converts them to the chloride, which is why mylanta is largely magnesium hydroxide

the other thing to keep in mind, aside from disturbing your stomach acid homeostasis, is that magnesium is a laxative. mixing it with food instead of taking it by iteslf helps with this. however, you don't want to mix it with food which is a good source of phosphate, such as coca-cola or high-phytate plants like flaxseed or beans, because the magnesium phosphate thus produced in your stomach has basically zero bioavailability. it doesn't matter if the phytate gets broken down by cooking because what it gets broken down to is phosphate

the oxide brand is a local argentine thing called 'natural whey', so you won't be able to find it abroad https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-1165077489-oxido-de...

francisofascii2• 3 years ago

Nuts: walnuts, cashews, almonds, sunflower seeds

arcanemachiner3• 3 years ago

My working assumption about multivitamins is that they contain enough of a given vitamin/mineral to _say_ it's in there, but not enough to cause problems caused by an excess of that nutrient. Which makes them not very useful for nutrients which are commonly quite low in the common diet (like magnesium).

Magnesium, for example, is a laxative in higher doses. If you're selling a multivitamin, you don't want to be giving your customers diarrhea, so you run the numbers and put in just enough magnesium so that your customers will get the benefits of your product without tipping the scales into diarrhea-ville.

On a side note, if your multivitamin is using magnesium oxide, it's barely getting absorbed by the body anyway.

snapplebobapple2• 3 years ago

I buy magnesium glycinate by the kilogram and just scoop the powder, aiming for a gram (2200mg of magnesium) by the kilo it costs 30-35 dollars, it's practically free as far as supplements go so I don't really care if I'm pissing most of it out, although it doesn't seem like I am. I am hesitant to mention the place I buy from because this doesn't seem like the place that looks kindly on promoting supplement companies. The only thing I ever ran into supplementing magnesium was disaster pants from choosing the wrong one (i.e. magnesium citrate, but I am sure others cause disaster pants at low doses too)

sound14• 3 years ago

Thank you! Probably sodium makes blood heavier and the heart has to work harder to pump it. I've had the same thinking about higher haemoglobin numbers (which I do, i am at too high HB for men) and I do suffer from borderline higher blood pressure since my adolescence (not to mention anxiety). Probably I should start taking more Magnesium to balance the minerals. Read somewhere on the internet that we need to balance the metals in our blood. Sodium, Potassium, Magnesium, Iron and Calcium lead to a healthy CVS system.

birriel• 3 years ago

Not medical advice, but for folks looking to supplement with Mg, it's best to avoid Magnesium oxide, as it is very poorly absorbed. Magnesium chloride and Magnesium bisglycinate are much better absorbed.

arcanemachiner3• 3 years ago

There are charts out there showing the bioavailability of different compounds. As a rule of thumb, the oxide versions of a mineral (e.g. magnesium oxide, zinc oxide) are often the cheapest and least bioavailable versions.

runnerup• 3 years ago

I’ve had the best luck with magnesium threonate.

biomcgary2• 3 years ago

Furthermore, magnesium levels in soils are typically fairly depleted, so the FDA labeling for fruits and vegetables is often incorrect (having been measured a long time ago).

darkclouds• 3 years ago

What doesnt make sense is the role the kidneys are not playing in a high sodium diet.

Sure there is the sodium potassium pump in cells, but what are the kidneys doing as they should be clearing the sodium, maintaining the balance.

whytai• 3 years ago

It's certainly true that most people are deficient in potassium. The daily recommended dose for males is over 3 grams per day![1]

To make matters worse, the FDA limits the amount of potassium that can be present in supplements to 100mg[2]. So good luck taking 30 supplements to meet your daily requirements!

One option Id like to advertise is salt alternatives at grocery stores which are filled with potassium, some with at least 800mg per tsp. This can be another way to supplement potassium and magnesium in the diet [2]

[1] https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Potassium-HealthProfession...

[2] https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/should-i-take...

tomcam5• 3 years ago

No one never explains how to get 3000 mg of potassium a day and potassium is usually a very small part of multivitamin supplements. It makes me slightly skeptical of that number.

kylecazar• 3 years ago

It's in a surprising amount of foods, people usually think bananas but it's in many fruits/vegetables, chicken, fish, in pretty high quantities

DesertVarnish• 3 years ago

It depends on what you eat. A person eating a lot of tomatoes, legumes, potatoes, and squash would hit it pretty easily, which is common for a lot of traditional diets (south asia, some parts of latin america, etc).

ska• 3 years ago

You are supposed to get it through eating a varied diet including potassium rich foods every day, typically.

This is part of the "5 servings per day" idea for fresh fruits and vegetables.

For example a banana and a cup of cooked spinach get you nearly 1/2 way there in 2 servings.

francisofascii2• 3 years ago

For fun, I asked Chat GPT to come up with a daily diet to hit the DRV number. It had a banana, potatoes, chicken, salmon, black beans, spinach, broccoli, an avacado, and a few other things. So it is "doable".

vixen99• 3 years ago

I wouldn't be. A lot of people have worked hard on these numbers over the years.

I'm guessing the limitation on supplements assumes a good diet (no shortage of advice from USDA on 'good' and potassium sources) which typically provides the recommended intake. However there can of course be days that's not possible.

slashdev• 3 years ago

I used to supplement with potassium salt powder. A teaspoon was like 5000-10000mg if I’m remembering right. I was very uncomfortable having it in the house, I think a couple tablespoons would likely stop the heart of an adult. I think it’d be very unpleasant to consume that much, but I didn’t test the theory.

I left a 1/8 tsp permanently in the bottle so there can be no mistake about what does to use.

hinkley4• 3 years ago

Potassium chloride is what they use to stop mammal hearts in euthenasia/capital punishment.

I think the FDA might have some reasons to prefer potassium be spread out across meals instead of taken in a lump sum all at once (think also, children eating vitamins as candy. I know someone who almost died of iron poisoning as a child before they made the pills bitter)

0cf8612b2e1e• 3 years ago

That’s intravenous KCL. Significantly different absorption than taking it orally. Wikipedia is showing a roughly 100x difference in the LD50 of oral vs intravenous.

If you tried to ingest a lethal dose of KCL, I would put huge odds on you first retching out you guts. ~190 grams orally to hit the LD50

Eric_WVGG• 3 years ago

I participated in a "crank science" study, where a bunch of us took salt alternative daily to see if the added potassium explained the success of the so-called "potato diet".

Salt alternatives taste like sipping a freshly blended nine volt battery. My big contribution to the project was discovering that the stuff is mostly tolerable when dissolved in cranberry juice.

https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2022/12/20/people-took-some-po...

arcanemachiner3• 3 years ago

I mix potassium-based salt alternative into my food and I barely notice it.

Fun fact: The potassium salt is mildly radioactive: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2015/ph241/gilpin1/

philipkglass4• 3 years ago

You can also buy potassium chloride water softener pellets. On the Lowe's site I currently see a 40 pound sack for $40. I used to grind them up in a coffee maker for making my own custom lower-sodium salt blend for cooking.

foobarian• 3 years ago

The potassium salt tastes disgusting (try a pinch!). That is my main blocker for having more of it via this route.

tomjakubowski• 3 years ago

To make matters worse, the FDA limits the amount of potassium that can be present in supplements to 100mg[2]. So good luck taking 30 supplements to meet your daily requirements!

You don't need nearly 30 pills, even with a poor diet. Almost all foods, even junk foods, have some amount of potassium. Per 100g (3.5oz), a random sampling from my typical snacks, lunches and breakfasts:

  chicken breast       223mg
  cooked white rice    35mg
  cooked pasta         24mg
  1 large egg          69mg
  whole milk           132mg
  apple                107mg
  bagel                165mg
  almonds              705mg
  banana               358mg
  Miss Vickie's Sea Salt & Vinegar Flavored Potato Chips  1260mg

Potato chips are high in potassium and have a close to ideal 2:1 ratio of potassium to sodium. Superfood!

SirMaster2• 3 years ago

Lol why potato chips? Why not just potatoes?

I eat potatoes most days, usually just boiled, sometimes baked to help get more potassium.

hinkley4• 3 years ago

When salt=death was a thing in the 80's and early 90's, one of the 'solutions' was to substitute sodium chloride for potassium chloride. Sounds like we were accidentally fixing the wrong problem.

carabiner• 3 years ago

Wait a few weeks and a study showing the opposite will come out.

lepus• 3 years ago

There are plenty of other studies showing a strong correlation between sodium and stroke risk and this study focused on overall CVD risk, so it's still a good idea to avoid high sodium intake.

epistasis2• 3 years ago

As a non-expert in this field of science, Id caution taking any single study or paper, and perhaps even any single meta-analysis, as an uncertain data point rather than something that determines life decisions.

Wading through all the data, how it was interpreted, and what the pitfalls might be, is extremely complex for epidemiology and in fact any human study.

Science is a self-correcting process, but for there to be corrections there must be errors first!

jtbayly• 3 years ago

There was an error first. "Salt==bad."

epistasis2• 3 years ago

An error first does not preclude a subsequent error either. Best to wait for replication, refutations, etc.

horsawlarway• 3 years ago

Anecdata, so take it for what it's worth...

But I have high blood pressure, and I've noticed that magnesium supplementation had a larger impact on my readings (in a good way, lower blood pressure) than anything else I tried, including the actual drugs the DR would prescribe (in my case - ACE inhibitors such as Losartan or Lisinipril).

Which is actually pretty astounding, given that the current accepted practice in modern medicine is moving the opposite direction - Diuretics prescribed for high blood pressure often cause low potassium as a side effect (potassium recovery in the kidneys is harmed at the expense of more quickly removing salt/water). And magnesium supplementation is usually warned against (somewhat ironically: because it tends to lower blood pressure even further, and in combination with the drugs can cause problems).

---

My take: it's not profitable to solve problems with easily available solutions, and so there is little incentive to fund studying it.

sound14• 3 years ago

Blood has a few major metals - Iron, Magnesium, Sodium, Potassium, Calcium and Iron. Reduce heavier metals (sodium, iron) in your diet and you should be okay with blood pressure and anxiety. I have a higher than normal blood pressure (and anxiety) since my 20s.

sound14• 3 years ago

Cant edit. These are my personal opinions and not medical advice

kragen3• 3 years ago

"heavier metals (sodium"

wtf

sigh

logs out

nobleach3• 3 years ago

I really wished this had worked for me. I was right on the line of high blood pressure. I would have good days and bad days. Once the bad days started to outweigh the good, my in-laws suggested a magnesium supplement. I tried that for a few months to no avail. I'd feel much better with a natural solution.

danaris2• 3 years ago

Did you try adjusting the dosage, changing which type of magnesium you were supplementing with, or a potassium supplement instead or in addition?

SirMaster2• 3 years ago

From what I have read, they don't recommend supplements. They recommend getting both magnesium and potassium from foods themselves saying that it works better.

My BP was borderline, and it lowered by 10-15 pts just by eating lots of potassium and magnesium rich foods.

If anything foods with these chemical elements in them seems to be about the most natural solutions I can think of. Even more natural than an artificially produced supplement.

snapplebobapple2• 3 years ago

Thusbpartiallyvworked fornme too to the point i currently supplement 40% of the magnesium rda and 20% potassium rda in addition tobregular dietary intake.

csours• 3 years ago

Does Calcium supplementation lead to higher levels of arterial plaque? I ask because I take a combined Magnesium/Calcium supplement.

agumonkey• 3 years ago

Vaguely related, fasting depletes potassium and can make your cardio vascular system really tense and weak.

BenoitEssiambre• 3 years ago

I can add an anecdotal data point to this. Intermittent fasting only started mildly working for me without making me feel weak and head-achy when I re-added electrolytes in the form of dill pickles, Lipton cup of soup or high enough dose supplements (Gatorade is not enough), especially before sweaty physical activity.

quangv• 3 years ago

https://www.healthyfood.com/ask-the-experts/the-sodium-potas... - i've heard that you need to balance potassium and sodium for ideal health.

natnatenathan• 3 years ago

I just did some quick research, and here are some common foods that are naturally rich in magnesium. In addition a lot of cereals like shredded wheat, oatmeal, bread also have mg. Looks like some delicious options. There was also a note in the article about that you can't absorb too much Mg through these sources.

* Almonds, dry roasted: Serving Size 1 oz, 80 mg

* Spinach, boiled: Serving Size ½ cup, 78 mg (does it have to be boiled?)

* Cashews, dry roasted: Serving Size 1 oz, 74 mg

* Peanuts, oil roasted: Serving Size ¼ cup, 63 mg

* Black beans, cooked: Serving Size ½ cup, 60 mg

* Edamame, shelled, cooked: Serving Size ½ cup, 50 mg

* Dark chocolate -60-69% cacoa: Serving Size 1 oz, 50 mg

* Peanut butter, smooth: Serving Size 2 tablespoons, 49 mg

* Avocado, cubed: Serving Size 1 cup, 44 mg

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/15650-magnesi...

modeless2• 3 years ago

Wow this is timely, I was just researching potassium and magnesium supplements a few days ago.

It seems like potassium supplements are useless because they're limited to 100mg by law and the way to go may be potassium based salt substitutes, which you can buy in bulk and take as much as you need. Some people talk about the danger of hyperkalemia but it seems to me like it's actually very difficult to cause that with supplementation unless your kidneys are malfunctioning.

What is the best way to supplement without causing digestive issues?

sauwan2• 3 years ago

If you're an athlete, I'd recommend LMNT. It's easy to make yourself, tastes great, and easy on the stomach.

Here's my recipe (all bought in bulk in a very fine powder form - they need to be consistent particle sizes so they mix well) which should be fairly close to LMNT, although a chemist will probably tell me I'm wrong:

20g magnesium malate

20g potassium chloride

142g salt

140g citric acid

15g stevia powder (pure, not mixed with some other sweetener)

20g artificial flavoring powder (not affiliated, but I have used black cherry powder from naturesflavors.com with good success)

Mix it up and then put 1 tsp in 20-32oz water. Should last you a long while.

suggestion• 3 years ago

Where do you purchase the magnesium and potassium from?

maherbeg• 3 years ago

Coconut Water tends to have a good amount of Potassium in it if you're deficient and want something "pre-mixed".

Higher Intakes of Potassium and Magnesium, but Not Lower Sodium, Reduce CVD Risk

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