Gut–brain axis study shows autism-associated molecular, microbial profiles

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-023-01361-0

by hammock • 3 years ago

75 122 3 years ago

hammock4• 3 years ago

Surprisingly, researchers identified a strong microbial signature for autism spectrum disorder, challenging the idea that autism is a primarily genetic condition and suggesting that environmental factors may be behind the sharp rise in ASD

hanniabu2• 3 years ago

Anyone with serious microbiome issues will tell you it's pretty obvious most diseases/conditions are due to your microbiome. The research just hasn't caught up yet and it's difficult to analyze since it's pretty much a black box that varies wildly between people.

callalex• 3 years ago

Really? _Most_ diseases seams like a gross overstatement.

mwbajor5• 3 years ago

It has long been noticed that many people with mental issues also have digestive issues. Imagine if the prescription for alot of health problems was to "eat a good diet and no amount of alcohol is beneficial"?

People don't want to make lifestyle changes, they want a pill and the pharmaceutical industry is happy to supply it.

go_elmo15• 3 years ago

Thats how homophobia develops too Ive heard, and cancer too, people in hiroshima died because thw radiation destroyed their biome which killed them, not their dna!

j16sdiz• 3 years ago

It can be reverse: People with ASD prefer some food that promotes a specific biome

zeroCalories• 3 years ago

i sure love my tendies

Jacky4Chan3• 3 years ago

Yeah, researchers are so dumb they haven't thought of this possibility. Thank you for being a genius.

justin_kempton7• 3 years ago

Exactly what I was thinking. In my own sons case, 8, his food preferences are extremely limited. We've pushed to expand this, even slipping many things undetected into his oatmeal. I've even wondered, were it possible to do a gut flora transplant, easily, what would be the result. Since early intervention is the name of the game, if the root cause were as trivial as the biome of your gut, every parent in the world would be signing up.

Sadly, these results do not seem game changing. Keep going!

dragonwriter5• 3 years ago

Surprisingly, researchers identified a strong microbial signature for autism spectrum disorder, challenging the idea that autism is a primarily genetic condition and suggesting that environmental factors may be behind the sharp rise in ASD

It doesn't really challenge anything without some evidence for causation from microbiome to ASD beyond correlation, since causation from ASD (or its genetic determinants) to microbiome is also consistent with a correlation.

epcoa• 3 years ago

Correlation is not causation.

Gupie• 3 years ago

It is doubtful there is any rise in ASD, just more awareness and diagnosis:

https://www.statnews.com/2023/03/23/autism-epidemic-cdc-numb....

concordDance• 3 years ago

That's not a good article, doesn't seem to link to studies making the case that it's changing diagnoses.

MagicMoonlight• 3 years ago

That's true to a degree but I don't think we had the level of moronity we currently have. You get children that are just mindless creatures who only know tiktok and biting. That doesn't feel like something that was underdiagnosed or unnoticed before

proee• 3 years ago

Does anyone have experience in doing a massive change to their gut and seeing long term results? Specifically, is it possible to "cure" autism through your gut microbiome?

kypro3• 3 years ago

Is it even possible to change your gut microbiome significantly without doing something extreme like a fecal transplant?

Also, I'm guessing that after someone's brain has developed it's going to become much harder to change.

That said, I'd be asking the alternative question, can we use this to give people high-functioning autism?

hammock4• 3 years ago

What’s extreme about a fecal transplant, aside from the ick factor? It doesn’t strike me as that different from taking a probiotic or a suppository

jt2190• 3 years ago

My layman’s understanding is that your immune system has an “strong opinion” about what bacteria it will tolerate, so simply introducing new bacteria generally does not make a permanent change to your gut biome. Even fecal transplant doesn’t really work for transforming the gut biome, as I understand it. (It can help reestablish bacteria that were lost due to medication or disease though.)

ramraj07• 3 years ago

In autism case that actually happened first. Parents began to restrict gluten out of the diets for kids with ASD and were adamant that this helped them a lot. The research community was highly skeptical and even derisive of this until they started finding real gut brain connection and proof in trials and mice studies. Hopefully parents of children who have such conditions can chime in and corroborate this history.

mtsr4• 3 years ago

Have you got any citations for this? I’d be interested to learn about any more definitive results in this area.

jadbox• 3 years ago

From the studies I've seen, gluten doesn't really provide much sustenance to the microbiome and it tends to leak through the gut.

alphazard2• 3 years ago

Gliadin (Gluten) increases intestinal permeability through Zonulin[0]. This is true in all humans, independent of allergies or auto-immunity.

It's unlikely that gluten itself has anything to do with ASD, it just exacerbates an existing predisposition to intestinal permeability. And so restricting Gluten is a reasonable intervention. The underlying cause is almost certainly dysbiosis, the microbiome continually modulating permeability in a way that is damaging to the host.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonulin

Philadelphia• 3 years ago

It’s discussed in the paper under the heading “ASD microbiomes mirror behavior improvement after fecal matter transplant”

“To test this, we re-analyzed data from a 2-year, open-label fecal matter transplant (FMT) study with 18 children with ASD52. In this study, the children were subjected to a 2-week antibiotic treatment and a bowel cleanse, followed by 2 d of high-dose FMT treatment and 8 weeks of daily maintenance FMT doses. Based on one of the most common evaluation scales for ASD, the Childhood Autism Rating Scale (CARS), significant improvements were achieved after the 10-week course of treatment. Two months later, the initial gains were largely maintained, and a 2-year follow-up showed signs of further improvement in most of the patients. The results are consistent with a potential role of the microbiome in improving autism symptoms, but how the underlying changes in microbiome composition related to those seen in other studies remains unknown.”

itronitron• 3 years ago

Some people have commented on their positive experiences with the probiotic Bacillis subtilis

> related thread from two years ago...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26038638

> also searching on hn.algolia yields this...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1690998813&dateRange=all&dat...

mwbajor5• 3 years ago

Theres alot of anecdotal evidence from parents that seems to prove some of this. There are two problems: 1) Most people with autism don't have it e.g. there is no good definition. 2) Not only are diet studies hard to do because they involve self reporting, but there is no money in telling a person that they should eat right unless its part of a diet fad.

go_elmo15• 3 years ago

Saying autism depends on your microbiome is like saying your sexuality depends on it. Sure, might make sense, yet there is no single Person that changed its preferences after a change in diet or microbiome death through antibiotics. That sounds like a pile of crap to me - Im autistic myself btw

edgyquant2• 3 years ago

there is no single Person that changed its preferences after a change in diet or microbiome death through antibiotics

Seems like a huge claim you can’t backup due it being a negative.

Teever• 3 years ago

Yeah in a world where dogs can smell cancer and people with relatively mild brain injury can wake up permanently speaking in a different accent I think it's entirely possible that a radical change in microbiome due to freak accident or experimental treatment has resulted in a change in sexual preferences.

go_elmo15• 3 years ago

I wanted to make it easy for you to disprove iff it does not holding - lack of such disprovals only strenghten my point.

kypro3• 3 years ago

People can get depression and suffer other neurological issues after taking antibiotics can't they?

I'm not saying your sexuality can change, but I thought there was fairly conclusive evidence that microbiome changes do impact people neurologically?

go_elmo15• 3 years ago

The point is autism is a neurological condition - like a hardware wiring. Changing that because of bacteria can be compared to changing sexualities imo - and Im highly sceptical of it.

mtsr4• 3 years ago

I think it’s worth looking at what different facets are part of being autistic. It might be possible to differentiate between personality characteristics that are important to you (that you associate with your sense of self) and those that you can see as somewhat less essentially part of who you are.

For example, you might have a particular way of thinking that is different from other people which is both important to you and often associated with ASD. That doesn’t feel like something likely to change qualitatively from say a diet change.

On the other hand, there might be aspects like being overwhelmed by particular kinds of stimuli, that feel less personal and may feel more likely to be impacted be something like a diet change.

Finally, consider that you might be holding too tightly to some aspects of who you are “right now”, to be able to see and accept how some of these things might change. I know I do sp sometimes (regardless of whether I might be on the spectrum, or not). At the very least a relatively fixed (as opposed to growth) mindset is also often associated with ASD.

go_elmo15• 3 years ago

I agree that some parts might be fluid, especially what the term autism denotes and entails. The way I use it, it summarizes my neurological differences compared to allistics (non-autistics), not today and right now but throughout my _whole_ life.

Anyone who says that autism can be cured, would therefore have to change my being fundamentally, which I personally would oppose, as it is this exact difference, that allowed me to get to points intelectualy where others were not before.

If anyone wants to eradicate autism, sure, go for it, just dont expext any dirac, newton, einstein, and many others to ever get Born again.

Yes, this topic releases a lot of emotions Im aware of that. Whats important to me is that being autistic means being different - not worse. "a relatively fixed mindset" sounds soo pathological.

Autistics hold onto their constructs and routines, because their minds are too flexible and boundry less. I could frame that NT "rigidness" as a pathology just as well.

Thanks for being that open and non black/white thinking to let that sink in and accept it because it comes from an autistic person who does know better about them than someone who is not.

And Im aware of not targeting the main subject of gut bacteria here, and apologize for that. Im sure with your mental fitness youll be able to separate the two aspects and still value the insights shared, thanks!

slibhb• 3 years ago

I don't know -- Tao Lin claims he cured his autism by eating raw eggs and honey.

go_elmo15• 3 years ago

I know people that claim to live from sunlight alone. Your point is meaningless

nemo4• 3 years ago

Through nutrition, detoxification, exercise, writing (and other autism-friendly forms of self-expression), reading (allowing me to alleviate loneliness in private, without distress), cannabis, change-catalyzing psychedelics, meditation, and practice, I’ve become much less autistic since high school and college. I estimate I now range from 30 to 98 percent more autistic than my peers, depending on the hour, day, week, and month; every symptom varies, I’ve learned, depending on sleep, situation, inflammation levels, cultural consumption, mindset, and hundreds of other factors.

It was more than eggs an honey. Also looking into him a bit, he still seems very autistic despite being "cured."

Jacky4Chan3• 3 years ago

Generally speaking, lesbians are more affected by PCOS than Heterosexual women.[1] PCOS is associated with higher androgen production due to insulin resistance.

Do you know what decreases insulin resistance and changes gut microbiome composition? intermitent fasting.

A review published in Frontiers in Microbiology in 2020 suggested that women with PCOS tend to have less diverse gut bacteria, and the balance of different types of bacteria might also be altered. The causal relationship is obviously not clear.

1. https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282%2804%2902227-7/...

go_elmo15• 3 years ago

Ok, lesbians have different microbiomes, nice to hear!

Not relevant to the to be proven point that change to biome implies change in sexuality, none at all.

Frummy• 3 years ago

You’re right. That your viewpoint has so much resistance is just typical of how autistic people never get rapport in neurotypical discourses - even when it concerns the very perspective only they have.

go_elmo15• 3 years ago

Thank you so much... It really feels like autistics are where lgbtq+ was 40 years ago - bad comparison some might, but the best one I know of!

mwbajor5• 3 years ago

Theres no uniform definition of autism. If you go to 10 different psychiatrists for a diagnosis, you'll get 10 different answers most relying on heavy self reporting by either the parents or the patient. None of this is accurate.

go_elmo15• 3 years ago

There is, its the dsm-5 diagnostic criteria. Sure, giving that diagnosis is no mathematical proof, but the criteria are clear.

pphysch• 3 years ago

So is there a possible correlation or causation between "helicopter parenting" -> "not letting kids play in the dirt" -> "weak microbiome" -> "autism" / developmental difficulties?

Definitely could be other factors too, like non-diverse diets.

klyrs• 3 years ago

I'd say the worse thing is iPad parenting -> kids don't want to play in the dirt

hammock4• 3 years ago

What are all the factors that impact gut microbiome? Is it just things that go into your mouth like dirt and food? Or are there other pathways as well?

orangepurple3• 3 years ago

Glyphosate

TedDoesntTalk• 3 years ago

breast milk and vaginal births are large contributors to the gut microbiome of infants.

mantas• 3 years ago

Interesting thought. I was raised in a rather hygienic house. I started mountain biking a lot. Part of which is regularly eating a banana covered with all sorts of filth from a backpocket. IMO I got much more social and less awkward in my late 20s. Could this be improved microbioma?

Terr_• 3 years ago

"not letting kids play in the dirt" -> "weak microbiome"

I'd caution that there are at least two variations of this, with rather different treatment implications:

1. ("Hygiene Hypothesis") Modern immune systems are coddled degenerate weaklings that should be toughened up with exposure to survivable levels of hostile microbes.

2. ("Old Friends") Your immune system is complex and its ideal tuning is reliant on normal exposure to benign, commensal, or symbiotic microbes which help it calibrate or even serve as outsourced components.

justin_kempton7• 3 years ago

As a parent of Autistic child, I would argue it is a correlation. It only takes a few incidents of your child running off without interest in returning by your calling to him, to make you a helicopter parent. It's also true that since your child has no interest in playing with other kids, and you are trying to teach survival and social skills, you end up spending far more time with your child than the typically developing kid.

And it is further true that in social situations the anxiety level of the autistic child increases, as does the parent, and so people viewing the situation might be biased to see a highly anxious parent with a spoiled kid, and assume the causation.

My kid loves playing in dirt, he also loves to track it into the house, no-matter how many times you tell him. We live with dirt, and autism. My kid is also a genius, so there are good things about it also.

orangepurple3• 3 years ago

Glyphosate use vs autism prevalence overlay

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Correlation-between-chil...

Ygg23• 3 years ago

Correlation isn't causation (Wet streets cause rain).

Unless you have some kind of mechanism to explain it.

orangepurple3• 3 years ago

More than one-half of human microbiome are intrinsically sensitive to glyphosate

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9145961/

zug_zug• 3 years ago

Well glyphosate accumulates on wheat products and ends up in your food (e.g. breakfast cereal) [1]. So it's not impossible glyphosate is affecting us negatively, but there just isn't any real evidence yet.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8622992/

mullingitover• 3 years ago

US spending on science, space, and technology vs Suicides by hanging, strangulation and suffocation overlay

https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

kmeisthax• 3 years ago

Total revenue generated by arcades vs. computer science doctorates... wait a second I think this one might actually be onto something

dragonwriter5• 3 years ago

So both have a similar shaped growth curve, but large deviations from that curve on the suggested independent variable are not reflected at all in the suggested dependent variable? Sounds like two unrelated phenomenon with similar long-term shape but no direct link.

svnt5• 3 years ago

The correlation is perhaps not the smoking gun OP thinks but your analysis seems to be based on the assumption there is no time lag in the population of children 6-21 with autism and glyphosate use on grains.

The most obvious one would be a six year lag. But it might have variance depending on crop cycles and whether glyphosate is handed off through the placenta and/or mother’s milk, and depending on the proposed mechanism of action and weaning age.

whatscooking• 3 years ago

I hate those graphs. You can manipulate the axes on any graph to make it look like the two variables closely match each other and increase at the same rate

marginalia_nu4• 3 years ago

To be fair

https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

nemo4• 3 years ago

Autism prevalence growth may be driven by increased medicalization of society causing more diagnoses and increased medical training to hand out the diagnosis. We have little reliable data on the past with diagnoses only becoming a thing in the 1990s. One should be very careful extrapolating from the existing data since it's not a reading of actual numbers of people affected, but the rates of diagnosis.

evrydayhustling• 3 years ago

Whenever I see these gut biome results, I can't help thinking that there are so many common causes that can explain both biome and diagnosis/behavior: region, ethnography, socioeconomic class, etc. Has anyone gone deep enough into the studies to know if/how that is controlled for?

thereticent• 3 years ago

I appreciate the scientific question. These posts tend to launch wild takes on HN that confuse correlation with causation and attempt to reduce disease to just one foundational factor. It just doesn't work like that for a lot of illnesses.

roywiggins• 3 years ago

By my reading of the paper, they didn't see an effect when they compared siblings...

mtsr4• 3 years ago

Fair point. But once you start comparing regions that differ in one way (say food between Western European countries), they most likely differ in so many other ways that the analysis becomes very very hard.

marginalia_nu4• 3 years ago

It's also worth questioning in which direction the causality flows.

If it's reasonable to expect diet and activity levels to have microbial effects, and it is reasonable to expect the psychopathology in question to have an effect on activity levels and diet; then whatever microbial differences you find between sufferers and non-sufferers could just as easily be the consequence as the cause of the pathology.

2OEH8eoCRo0• 3 years ago

Is there anything that flows both ways? When it comes to human behavior I've read that faking it and smiling more makes you feel happier, and happier people smile more.

Almost like your brain goes, "I'm smiling so I must be happy right now."

greenflag• 3 years ago

Interestingly, on Monday a preprint [1] was posted calling into question a major Nature paper from 2020 that associated the microbiome with multiple cancer types [2] (though within each tissue sample, not the gut).

[1] https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.07.28.550993v1 [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2095-1

mtkhaos2• 3 years ago

Controversial take.

Autism isn't a disorder, but a mutation and in this instance can be correlated to the microbiome of the gut. But does not account for the increase in reeln nor changes in rna that cause increased sensitivity to stimuli. And is only treated as a disorder in respect to assembly line predetermined processes typical of today's organizations. That runs counter to the increased stimuli of maintaining said predetermined process, while punishing divergence.

This is also noting that data can be fit to suit a narrative and causation is different than correlation. But seem similar in the general context of today's discourse. And limited by predictability while noting the massive reproduction crisis in science such as this article and others. Including the recent controversy at Stanford with the president stepping down due to enabling the manipulation of data specifically in this domain of science.

CobaltFire2• 3 years ago

There is a divergence which could offer some advantage (myself perhaps), and then there are some that would just kill the individual (my son).

Broad brush strokes don’t help. It’s labeled a “spectrum” for a reason.

mtkhaos2• 3 years ago

It's not a broad brushstroke and specifically here am an autistic individual surviving neurodegeneration due to the increase of reeln funny enough.

This obviously isn't the place for said discussions.

CobaltFire2• 3 years ago

As someone with major dietary issues due to autoimmune conditions (essentially vegan + fish - tree nuts - nightshades - gluten), who was diagnosed as Asperger’s ~20 years ago and has a child with “severe” autism:

I’m both hopeful and doubtful of studies like this. I tend to think these help narrow the search space, but are missing whatever underlying issue is causing the thing they see. My sons diet is hugely restricted due to his intolerance of many things (chemo changes to taste hurt that significantly as well) so I’d imagine his gut biome is an issue at this time. It likely was NOT prior to his chemo (though we can’t know for sure) as he ate the same diet my daughter did (and we tend towards quite healthy). We’ve investigated other possible environmental factors, including PFAS/PFOS testing, heavy metals testing, etc. (my career exposed me to those but he was never exposed that we can tell). Everything inconclusive.

As I said, I’m hopeful we can figure this out. Each step helps, even if it’s not the final one to finding the cause.

Gut–brain axis study shows autism-associated molecular, microbial profiles

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