How Likes and Plus Ones Are Killing Commerce, and Pinterest is Saving it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3670001

by davemel37 • 14 years ago

9 7 14 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

IMHO...Peer Recommendations, Facebook Likes, Plus Ones, Check Ins, and other social recommendation engines and aggregators have all seemed to miss the boat when it comes to influencing purchasing behavior. (In fact, They should be doing the EXACT OPPOSITE to be effective!)

The running theory is that peer recommendations in the real world seem to really influence our purchasing decisions, We ask our friends for recommendations and ideas all the time, and make decisions based on what they say and like... so, if we can aggregate our friends preferences and choices, and deliver that data to us as we search, it will influence us in the same way and help us weed through the garbage, curate the products and options out there, and help us make easier decisions...

This is based on a flawed understanding about how, why and where peer recommendations matter.. (and how it is actually the solution to a problem that we would rather not have in the first place.)

There are two basic theories out there about why they work. Both are accurate on one layer but miss the deeper emotions and motivations behind it.

1. We hate to think, and want every possible advantage to help us think less and if our friends already vetted an option and approved it, it makes our life and decision making easier.

2. Trust and Credibility are the biggest challenges of communicating value and marketing, and a peer recommendation seems to solve that problem.

The truth is, the reason trust and credibility are such an issue to us and the reason we seek out our friends recommendations is actually more of a dynamic of our relationship than it is relevant to the issue at hand of solving my problem to making my pain go away. (I.e. I am not asking for a friends recommendation because I need his advice but rather because I want his validation of my decision.)

One of our biggest fears is "Looking Like a Fool" to our friends and peers. Every time we make a decision to buy something, we ask ourselves, how can I defend this purchase to my friends, family, colleagues, whoever out there is going to question my decision. This is the real reason peer recommendations work so well...It removes the fear of disapproval. It gives you a scapegoat, and lets you know that your friends already approve your choice. For this reason, in the context of seeking out peer approval, recommendations and referrals works so well. Like in forums, or asking friends questions, and other places that you proactively seek their recommendation.<p>

However, The truth is, I would rather not have this fear in the first place. There are a couple of ways to do this. 1. To create a scenario where I have bragging rights over my friends. Where not only am I not afraid of defending my decision to my friends, I will jump on the opportunity to brag and gloat... Hey check out my new Ipad3 or I got invited to a private beta of pinterest.

The thing is, when I am searching in google, or anywhere and I see that my friends valdiated a product, it causes me pain. It reminds me that I need to defend my decisions to them, and also lets me know that, "THEY GOT THERE FIRST" They are the one who discovered that cool new coffee spot, or they are the one with the new Ipad3.

These social recommendations cause me pain, They don't make the pain go away.<p>I can find curated content, and validate products and companies with a few google searches, but showing me what my friends already liked, defeats the very mechanism that drives successful peer recommendations.

Pinterest makes me feel good about myself. It makes me feel better than my friends. Every time i get an email that "Joe Awesome" is following my pinboards, I think, Hah, I got here first... Everytime I see a friend liked something or recommended something I think, Eh, they found it first, I am gonna search for something better, something I can brag about, something that makes me feel better than my friends, not something that reminds me how much I thrive on their approval, and need their approval...

I still believe that when I am getting ready to make a purchase decision, if I dont have bragging rights and I need to justify my decisions that I can always find a forum or some reason to defend my purchase and all will be well.

Give me the tools to show off every time I find something cool and I will PIN Things all day long :)

davemel374• 14 years ago

This actually goes beyond my original point about hitting the emotional triggers and how social recommendations are self-defeating.

Think about why you or others share things with friends. We share because we want the feeling of validation, the way it feels to make someone smile, or laugh, or wow them is awesome. The problem that social everything seems to miss is the receiving end of the social encounter.

Ever have a friend tell you that you MUST see a movie, but you just dont feel like it? Or walk out of a great movie saying it sucked because it was "overhyped" this is all the same dynamic of feeling like you are on the losing end of the interaction. The end that is taking, not giving, the end that needs someone else, not the end that is needed.

Pretty much the only way I am interested in seeing your likes or recommendations is if it is something I can share with someone else, it can put me back on top of another relationship, if only for a moment.

This is also why we are so reluctant to share something that is not awesome or might not be well received by the other person, because it defeats the emotion that drives my NEED TO SHARE.

I think this understanding of being on the losing end of a social interaction is an opportunity for someone to figure out a way to enhance this experience, and than they will really win the social commerce game.

queensnake• 14 years ago

Like a couple of things that smart people have said - our rate of innovation has dropped off, and, all the smartest workers are trying to maximize advertising effectiveness (well that and finance). Computers - a blessing and a curse.

Forrest7778• 14 years ago

I think that you are correct in many ways:

It addresses the point of people being afraid to express themselves because there is almost always a large mass of objects to pin - so you should feel more comfortable pinning something that you may or may not be secure about your friend's agreeing with. If someone was to think "Wow, those shoes are ugly" and you had it pinned - hey, it's a huge pinboard and I'm sure they agree with more things about you than they disagree.

It's also a complete positive board - much like the like system is, there isn't a way to track how many people don't like something - so there's safety in numbers of pinning something someone else already has pinned.

I think that something innovative that could possibly be added towards the pinning system is to allow people to add their own tags to the objects that you can pin - and allow people to add the pins to their own groups - and allow these groups to be reviewed publicly like a portfolio. It would be much easier to obtain information about people who like groups of specific objects then. (Assuming this isn't already done - I'm not a Pinterest user myself.)

davemel374• 14 years ago

Great Point. By not reporting back to me the negative feedback, and the massive amount of pinnings I do, It removes a big element of the fear involved in social sharing, while still having the benefits of being recognized when something awesome is shared.

I still think someone needs to find a way to make social sharing a win for both sides to really start influencing purchasing decisions... Or better yet, hide my friends likes, plus ones, and recommendations, and only share them when I ask,"what do you think of this?"

That would be a nifty function that lets me control when I ask for recommendations (i.e. when I am seeking the approval from friends) but eliminates the lag time of waiting for a response from my friends...

firebones• 14 years ago

I think I understand your point. If your psyche is such that you value being first in terms of discovering things, and you feel bad if others discover them before you, a social system that reinforces how wonderfully novel your special snowflake status is will stroke your narcissism, promoting higher retention rates as you continue to come back for the daily affirmation.

This is probably true for a lot of people (and who doesn't love non-stop affirmation from others like when they retweet you or favorite a clever tweet?) But it's a hell of a way to live, giving others so much control over your happiness.

Systems like that seem to work really well until people just burn out from being on the dopamine treadmill. That can take years, though.

davemel374• 14 years ago

I think human nature is hard-wired in people and hasn't really changed since the caveman days.

While I agree it is a sad existence to give so much control over your happiness to others...I think there is a hardwired element built into our social interactions that revolves around being accepted by your peers, feeling needed, feeling like you are contributing, and that is satisfied by peer affirmation, especially so when you have "Bragging Rights" over your peers.

My point simply is that people are looking for peer recommendations to satisfy this emotional need of "not looking like a fool" and to help defend their purchase to others who will questions their decision and "want them to fail"... and not to actually find out if a product or service is actually good, or actually will solve their needs.

I believe that search plus your world, and all of these startups and features focusing on having our friends curate the web for us, are missing a crucial understanding of how and why we might care what our friends think, and are many times self-defeating.

Just for the record, it is a common truth in the direct response copywriting world that you not only need to sell your target audience but you have to give them the tools to defend their purchase to those who want them to fail, and will question their decision. This fear of making mistakes, and looking like a fool in front of your friends.

Just think about the last time you bought something and told someone about it. What details did you share with them defending the decision that you wasn't really relevant.

A perfect example is YCombinator explaining the percentage they take. It's a bit expensive for the money, but the networking, the doors it opens, and the validation it offers, so it's a great deal. You don't need to sell me, I wouldn't be applying if I needed to be sold. I need to defend that decision to my brother in law, or my wife or friend, who will ask me why I took such a bad deal. (I really took it because it validates me, the extra benefits justifying the decision, that is to defend the decision.

Just to be clear, I do think YCombinator is very much worth it, and a very good deal... my point simply is that it is likely an emotional reason for taking the deal, and the value it offers is what lets you sleep at night and face your friends.

I think this is a fundamental in all purchase decisions. There is the emotional triggers, and than there are the justifications. You buy because it satisfies an emotional need, but you won't buy without a way to defend your decision.

davemel374• 14 years ago

Just an Afterthought: Effective Peer recommendations are not reflective on the product, but rather the relationship between the product, the person buying the product and the friend making the recommendation. You need to firing on all cylinders for this to influence purchase behavior.

Like all marketing, you need the right Message, delivered to the right market, through the right media. Missing any of these elements will not be effective marketing.

How Likes and Plus Ones Are Killing Commerce, and Pinterest is Saving it.

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