An open challenge to PandoDaily

http://scripting.com/stories/2012/03/02/anOpenChallengeToPandodail.html

by davewiner • 14 years ago

127 67 14 years ago

michaelmior2• 14 years ago

I think the point of the PandoDaily post was that you're already trusting apps with access to your data. You've granted permission for the app to access it any time. When I grant permissions for an app to access by data, this doesn't mean I am allowing my data to be published for the world to see. That's what privacy policies are for.

jimbobimbo• 14 years ago

...and Dave response's point is that there's no way to guarantee the privacy policy is obeyed, unless it is enforced one way or another. User expectations with regards to the private data were supposed to be guarded by App Store approval process and Apple's iOS access restrictions, however this and now photos somehow slipped through.

Pando's mocking of the situation with clipboard example is off the mark. User's expectations from the clipboard is to actually share data (between the applications). Yes, there's a chance that app will publish the contents of your clipboard, but I don't think many users will store sensitive data in the clipboard anyway. In other words - vulnerability of the clipboard is an acceptable trade-off, however accessibility of contacts, photos, other private data is really not.

michaelmior2• 14 years ago

Privacy policies can rarely if ever be enforced or guaranteed. This isn't something new. I can't think of many cases where a third party guarantees adherence to privacy policies. Ultimately if you give someone access to your data, you have to trust that they treat that data appropriately.

byrneseyeview• 14 years ago

"When you said X, you probably meant Y. But I bet you don't believe Y, thus you were lying about X."

How many pointless arguments take this form? He should articulate why he considers the situations comparable, so the Pando people have something to disagree with.

davewiner9• 14 years ago

This is a little abstract for me, so I'm not sure I understand the objection.

Their point is that we are being silly for caring where our personal data goes.

If we're being silly, here's an easy way to prove it. Show us how careless you are with your own personal data.

If there's a limit, something you won't do to show how casual you are about it, then we found something that we agree on.

My belief is they haven't thought it through, and are just being cute for the sake of being cute, about something that is very serious.

Actually trying to help them find a good place. Because where they are now, is not good.

Of course imho and ymmv.

pbreit2• 14 years ago

The article referenced an app accessing the clipboard (x) and your challenge involved uploading all of one's contact information and pictures (y).

larrys• 14 years ago

"My belief is they haven't thought it through, and are just being cute for the sake of being cute"

What I find scary sometimes is if you make challenges like you did to Pando you are assuming they even have the same sense of care and responsibility about their data as you or an average person would.

This reminds me of someone who runs an amusement ride and says "I let my kids ride that ride" as if that is to imply ultimate safety. It doesn't. To wit: There was a story or two recently about parents who let their teenage daughters sail around the world solo. I don't think most parents would do that.

AznHisoka3• 14 years ago

Nice try. No Pagerank for you!

cheald3• 14 years ago

....do...you even know who Dave Winer is?

AznHisoka3• 14 years ago

why does that matter? I'm judging the content of the article, and it's just accusing another blog of something, just drama.. no valuable content here. just pointless, trivial drama looking for an ego boost.

untog3• 14 years ago

This is a false comparison.

Uploading your address book to Path is not the same as an app locally reading the contents of your clipboard and asking if you want to use that data. It's not even in the same league.

And, loathe though I am to defend PandoDaily, the OP misses the point of their article. Uploading your address book to an app is different than posting it publicly because people trust Path their their data. If they didn't then the really shouldn't be using it in the first place.

davewiner9• 14 years ago

Sorry but I think you're missing some data here. Every app on the iPhone can upload your address book, pictures and calendar data to their servers, whether or not they have anything to do with contacts. Every app. It's worth taking a look at the trivial crap we put on our iPads and iPhones thinking they're harmless, when each of them could be leaking all our private bits everywhere.

untog3• 14 years ago

No, I'm aware of that. What I am saying is that uploading data to an app, no matter what that app may be, is not the same as posting it publicly.

When you upload to an app, the makers of that app have access to your data. Don't get me wrong- that's a bad thing. But if you upload your data publicly, anyone in the world has access to your data. Drastically different.

smacktoward3• 14 years ago

> Uploading your address book to an app is different than posting it publicly because people trust Path their their data.

Are you sure about this?

Has every Path user really reviewed Path's data security policies and deemed them satisfactory? Do Path users even have access to that information? And if they did, would most of them be in any position to evaluate it knowledgeably?

Or isn't it more likely that they trust Path because they don't know the full scope of what Path has access to? Blind trust is easier to extend to someone the less information you're trusting them with, after all.

drumdance• 14 years ago

I didn't read all the disclosure documents on my mortgage, but I bought the house anyway.

I'm not saying Path is right for what they did, but neither do I think it's the same as publishing everything where identity thieves can get at it. Such black & white thinking is of little use in creating policy.

moadeel5• 14 years ago

Yes, I think it is quite a clear statement. Uploading to an app is not the same as posting it publicly.

Other points that you are mentioning have more to do with user's willingness to take privacy seriously. Most don't take it seriously because a) it's tedious and time-consuming b) they probably don't understand it c) it is easier to trust the company like everyone else and get onto using the app and 4) ... as long as it does not include criminal, financial, health or their telephone records, everything is pretty much a go go for a user.

Users don't care about their privacy unless it has elements of the 4 categories stated above. Users hate hassle and they have pretty much resigned from the fight for privacy mainly because they have found that the benefit of sharing things with others outweighs the willingness to be clear of a trouble that rarely every shows up in their conscience anyway .... think about it ... when was the last time a major security breach occurred that compromised so many millions and devastated so many thousands that it has left a blip or a bad mark on users conscience.

We maybe very techi ... but average users are far more occupied with other concerns. So blind trust plays a strong role for them.

billpatrianakos2• 14 years ago

I'd argue that ven if they read the security policy they wouldn't understand it anyway. When you're surrounded by hackers it's easy to think everyone has some basic understanding of computers but in reality most people are lucky if they know how print a damn Word document.

This really is a false comparison. Accessing an address book for the app's use only and accessing the address book for public publishing are so far apart it's ridiculous. Security policies don't mean anything. If data is stored digitally there will always be a way to compromise its security no matter how much encryption, SSL, etc. you use. Security, especially on the web is a total misnomer. All you can really do is make it inconvenient to access.

Trusting a company isn't about their data privacy and security policies. It's about their brand to a large degree. Their track record and other peoples' experiences with the app. I'm in the camp that understands these policies and what they mean but thats not the reason I trust the company behind an app. I trust Google with my docs because they have a good track record. Facebook I trust as a necessary evil. Scratch that, I don't trust Facebook but I use it anyway because I'm banking on the odds. I think that's what it boils down to for most average folks. If the odds are that they'll have no trouble then that's a risk they're willing to take. If there's a breach of security and a bunch of people have their data exposed (but I'm not affected) well that makes me think twice not because of the breach itself but because of all the pile-on press coverage.

I'm one who firmly believes that people don't make their own minds up about this stuff. The average person's view of this whole app uploading address books thing is based purely in whichever side of the manufactured debate is the loudest and seemingly most expert-y. After watching how people use the web, their computers, and their smartphones for some time now I've become really cynical when it comes to this stuff. People don't seem to care until someone writes a blog post that tells them they should care.

rickmb2• 14 years ago

It's different in that having your address book uploaded without your permission is actually being the victim a crime in most countries. At least posting it publicly is a voluntary act.

Putting yourself in a situation where you are very likely to get mugged would be better comparison. Winer is being mild in his challenge.

So yeah, I agree it's not in the same league, but not in the way you mean.

rsanders• 14 years ago

I trust Path with some of my data -- most of it generally created for the specific use within Path.

xpose2000• 14 years ago

To put it another way:

If your address book data was stolen and made public because of poor practices by one of your apps, you'd be pretty upset right? PandoDaily mocking that type of situation is somewhat alarming.

However, if PandoDaily doesn't care about that type of scenario then go ahead and publish their address books. Otherwise, it's no laughing matter.

Edit: I agree with Dave's point. They wouldn't share it because no one wants this to happen. Therefore they shouldn't be mocking something that is fairly serious.

davewiner9• 14 years ago

Thank you. That was the point of the challenge.

kmfrk• 14 years ago

Here is another great article about the credibility issues the Silicon Valley industry has because of its conflict of interest: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120222,0,704....

moadeel5• 14 years ago

This is apples to oranges. Most users, use applications because they find about it from trusted sources. They are more interested in just using the application and moving on. Users have shown time and again that as long as the source is trusted (friends, media, overhyping blogs) then they leave it up to the company to make sure their data is private. Calling to a challenge of posting everything to public is misstating what users actually provide: a permission to take their data and keep it private versus here is my data for the rest of the world to see. There is a social contract between the user and the company that is bound by the trust that "my info will not be leaked" and looking at the history of the web I think the companies backed by competent teams take this contract very seriously.

ruswick• 14 years ago

Exactly. This 'challenge' has absolutely nothin to do with what PandoDaily is talking about. There's a huge difference between giving your information to a trusted company versus just throwing it out in public.

rickmb2• 14 years ago

In what bizarro world do consumers trust companies that steal their private data without permission?

Companies I trust don't break the law and violate my privacy. Contract, especially unwritten "social" contracts don't override the law.

moadeel5• 14 years ago

Theoretically speaking, in every conceivable world, would the users not trust the companies who steal their data. However, practically speaking, users trust the companies who "steal" their data so long as that data is not publicized/leaked. In fact, I would argue as much that most users know that there is information being collected of them that they are not aware of, and they have accepted it because they haven't seen huge negative consequences in their personal life or in the media that make them worried of the collection of their information.

In my opinion, it would have to take a data breach of the likes of katrina, tsunami 2004 and BP oil spill all within a few weeks for users to get hammered with the point that they should be more concerned about what is happening with their data.

Having said that, there will always be a small group who would be up in arms about the simple act of stealing whether a negative consequence follows or not. And kudos to them for they are doing a service to us all by keeping an eye on these companies.

The point that I am trying to get across is that the history of the web along with the time consuming nature of reading huge agreements has led to users entering into social contracts of trust with these companies. They could care less about how much you try to alert them. Companies can continue to take one action after another to alert the users of all that the things company will do and the user will merely see that has an obstacle to get to the app and therefore will simply accept/agree robotically and move on. Why?

Users behave in herd mentality, respond to only the most imminent of threats or fear of extremely dire potential consequences. If they see everyone else doing something they will do it too, even if that means you get them to agree to very stiff contracts. They will simply accept it as a way of life and move on.

When creating privacy policies, companies play this balancing act. What to constantly alert a user about, how many of them will actually care, we as a company know that all their data will be protected and not used criminally anyway?

Whatever path, facebook, twitter and others do with our data is irrelevant to most users so long as most of their trusted circles are doing it too. It just isn't a big issue for them as they maneuver around other pressing issues in their lives. Kudos to those few who have made it a big issue and have kept these companies at their toes. Their effort is worth commending and appreciating, and not mocking as has been done by others.

methoddk• 14 years ago

So it's okay that Twitter, Facebook, Path, etc, all have my contact list and possibly more? The point isn't that users trust they are keeping the data safe, its that they took it without asking up front. Those apps may be out to make its users lives easier, but I would like to know when they are taking my personal data and keeping it for 18 months in an archive

Either way, TC was/is lame. PandoDaily is too.

moadeel5• 14 years ago

It is not okay in the legal sense. But it has been given a green light far too many times by tacit approval of the users who could care less so long as the info is not leaked.

bsimpson• 14 years ago

The whole point of the PD article was that you trust developers to not do these things because market forces keep them in check. If an app was abusing your privacy, it would be revoked by the marketplace (Apple, Google, BN, or Amazon) and its developer's reputation would be tarnished.

Of course, maintaining a database of sensitive information is rife with risk, and it's completely fair for journalists to point that out. However, Path, Hipster, Instagram, etc. have no intention of leaking your data. An article reminding us to give developers the benefit-of-the-doubt in these cases is not even remotely the same thing as an article defending leaking personal data.

It's therefore disingenuous of the author to suggest that reminding people to be civil in the ways they react to these situations implies that we should all be comfortable publicly posting our personal rolodexes.

Someone else's contact information is not your IP to divulge; however, that doesn't mean we need to start a witch-hunt about it.

davewiner9• 14 years ago

There are hundreds of thousands of apps. Not all of them have reps that can be tarnished.

falling• 14 years ago

So, since every single application in your computer can access all of the same data and do whatever they please, has had that ability since forever and we see that as an advantage (see problems with adding sandboxing on the Mac), why are we so concerned about it on our phones and completely ignore the issues otherwise?

The only reason I could come up with is that on the phone we have apps that actually use that data, social networks of various fashions, while on our computers we mostly use apps to do stuff and social networks stay in the browser.

Should we be asking OS vendors to add those checks to our computers too?

davewiner9• 14 years ago

People are much less careful with what they download and install on their iPads and iPhones because of Apple's assurance that the apps are safe.

jsavin• 14 years ago

Exactly. There's an implicit promise to Apple's sandbox and theirs and Jobs' statements about how they're protecting users from Internet scaries (including porn and other "offensive" content) has given users an incorrect impression that data on their phones is safer than data on their computer. Add to that the fact that most adults remember an era when cellphones had no connectivity, or only USB or serial connections, and its not hard to see how people missed this.

Now the platform owners (Apple, Tootle, Microsoft, etc) must respond to keep the promise they've made, whether stated or implied, or eventually users will rebel. But until the response or rebellion happens, how much damage will be done?

The platforms will adapt, and users will eventually upgrade or move to competitors, but it will take months or years.

nutanc• 14 years ago

Nice post. If an application on our computers would upload all our contact details, our bookmarks etc to their servers to make it "easy" for us, would we agree to that. Guess we are just using these apps without worrying about the security. Good that people like Dave are bringing it out to the open.

tatsuke95• 14 years ago

Pando Daily appears to be trying to recreate the TechCrunch of last year, rather than the TechCrunch of 3+ years ago. This is the same guy who wrote the mocking article on Ireland's startup scene. I guess he's filling the MG Siegler role.

You know what would be awesome? Some solid technology journalism. The last thing we need is another conflicted, industry mouthpiece. If this is the content they're pushing, I hope it fades into oblivion.

jerhewet4• 14 years ago

And, if I might be so bold:

Technology != Consumer-Oriented Devices

Edit (before the downvotes hammer this comment into oblivion): The subject here is "tech journalism". I don't consider puff pieces about smartphones, MP3 players, your cell carrier, or anything else related to consumer-grade products to be "tech journalism".

I've pretty much stopped listening to "tech podcasts" and subscribing to "tech magazines" because of this problem. They're not delivering anything even vaguely related to technology any more. They're telling me about the latest iPhone or iPad press release, or how some cell carrier is doing something that I really could care less about. Just like I don't care about the latest digital camera, or the latest MP3 player.

athesis• 14 years ago

Which tech magazines do you read and recommend?

michael_fine2• 14 years ago

What do you look for in a tech magazine?

codemac• 14 years ago

usenix ;login: 4 life.

wyclif• 14 years ago

Edit: needs a question mark after "editing".

laconian• 14 years ago

The author of the Pando article is 18 years old. He's not at the age where he has been burned by something he did when he was young and dumb. He's hard at work building a great foundation for what that moment arrives, though!

davewiner9• 14 years ago

A net naive.

alexwilliams• 14 years ago

Pando Daily's cynicism is only matched by society's indifference to data privacy.

newman314• 14 years ago

s/cynicism/trolling/

FTFY

bigtech• 14 years ago

PandoDaily appears opaque about their bias to me, so I don't read it.

redthrowaway• 14 years ago

My open challenge to PandoDaily is to stop being utter shit. That's it. No clever attempts to trap them into defending their beliefs, just improve to the point where they in some way, shape or form resemble a credible journalism outfit.

shpoonj• 14 years ago

Don't download an app unless you trust the folks who made it. It's not on the company, it's on you. You are responsible for yourself and the security of your information. It's not Instapaper's job to watch your shit.

Also, call a spade a spade. If you want to issue them a challenge, ask them to download the Facebook app or the Path app or any of the other infringing apps. But they already have. They have already done the thing they're being accused of being uncomfortable with.

How sharing information from your iPhone with a company and publishing it online for the world to see are equivalent, I can't fathom.

An open challenge to PandoDaily

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