Daniel Micay publicly steps down from GrapheneOS

https://github.com/thestinger/daniel.micay.dev/commit/79e44b41190cd5c64c4ccd9fec4301ee6008da53

by joemazerino • 3 years ago

75 68 3 years ago

dingusdew• 3 years ago

Please don't tell me we're having a CopperheadOS repeat. Not a lot of info is provided, so it's got me slightly worried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CopperheadOS#License_change_an...

orblivion7• 3 years ago

So long as he doesn't have an internal conflict that leads him to delete the signing keys. So far I've only heard about him claiming to have issues with people outside of the organization.

orblivion7• 3 years ago

Actually he specifically said that he feels confident in the team taking over. I don't think this is like Copperhead at all.

sremani• 3 years ago

I am not sure, but some context about Daniel's failings in communication may have contributed. The following is link to Louis Rossmann's video about his interaction with Daniel published today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4To-F6W1NT0

This is speculation of course on my part and I do not have any evidence connecting the video with the event itself.

chantok• 3 years ago

I’m speculating that it is 100% because of that video. He got called out in a much larger audience this time and is unable to control it like in the project’s forum and matrix channel.

bubblethink• 3 years ago

Wish Louis hadn't made this. The drama just detracts from the project. Louis is not really a stakeholder in any of this. He could have just moved on and forgotten about it.

Kwpolska• 3 years ago

Louis’ employer (FUTO) did donate to GrapheneOS.

pshirshov2• 3 years ago

I hope that there would be less drama but the quality will remain the same.

I'm in his (extremely long) black list, but I really admire the project and use GrapheneOS. And I would prefer to keep the drama if that helps the quality to be high.

NoImmatureAdHom• 3 years ago

I have similar sentiments...

Whatever's happening now seems to work, in that it results in the best we've got for privacy-respecting phones. Obviously Daniel's communication style isn't what most people would like, but we all have our difficulties in life.

I wish him and the project well.

hammyhavoc• 3 years ago

What did you say/do to wind up on this blacklist? What does being blacklisted entail?

grapesurgeon• 3 years ago

if you criticize him or say anything remotely positive or cordial about techlore, calyxos or any of his other "enemies", you get blocked/banned and the matrix will relentlessly stalk your accounts, ready to pounce on you the moment you say anything else negative. its happened to me before. they have an entire matrix room where they seethe about what people say, sharing every post and account on the internet they deem harmful.

pshirshov2• 3 years ago

I said that I'm using both CalyxOS and GrapheneOS and not care about their relationships.

He just bans you from all their chats, github projects, etc.

Other people got banned just for being in CalyxOS chat.

To his credit he is definitely serious about any constructive criticism. I've been unhappy about lack of NLP and they've added an awesome NLP support mechanism into GOS. After that I switched to GOS completely.

After his rants I told him that as an asperger I suspect that he might be on the spectrum and it might help to dig into that direction. I'm quiet surprised that now he identifies himself as an autist. That might be just a coincidence though.

If he is lonely I would advice him to get a dog and a partner.

theothertimcook• 3 years ago

This is informative, and unfortunate…

Hope the dude finds some peace.

Crosseye_Jack• 3 years ago

Woah, no need for such language, it’s not like he put a sticker (which was near impossible to remove) on anyone’s MacBook!!!

sendfoods2• 3 years ago

The whole saga is tragic. There are so many details that I don't know about, which probably makes me unable to judge the whole situation fairly. I am a very happy Graphene user, for what it's worth.

Thank you for your contribution. All the best, Daniel.

Lyngbakr• 3 years ago

Can someone provide a CliffsNotes version of what the "whole saga" is?

gos_user• 3 years ago

It's been sad to watch. GrapheneOS really is an amazing operating system. From a technical perspective, it absolutely is the most private and security-focused phone OS out there. Daniel is an amazing developer with an incredible understanding of AOSP and security concepts, as is obvious to anyone who's read the materials on the GrapheneOS webpage.

But the social negativity has been building for a long time. As lead developer (until today) of a prominent security-focused open source project, Daniel receives constant harassment, including from what are likely organized campaigns. I fully believe his statements that he recently got swatted, something tantamount to attempted murder. But he reacts very badly to the anonymous trolls, ascribing their actions to unrelated people. For instance, he's been fixated on Techlore (a relatively unimportant Youtuber) ever since Techlore posted a video about GrapheneOS that was mildly positive but overall critical. Daniel drew a connection between Techlore and trollish harassment he received around the same time—falsely, IMO—and ever since has consistently accused Techlore of organizing any harassment he receives. And the story repeats itself in Daniel's relationship with other groups in the privacy space (such as CalyxOS, r/privacy...). The fallout continues to expand, as any observer who expresses any nuance is accused by Daniel of toxicity, supporting harassers and harassment, etc.

I'm willing to grant some leeway to people in Daniel's situation. It's tough to handle aggressive harassment and stalking and behave correctly every time in response. But there's a limit to how much you can get wrong, and Daniel has exceeded it. He can't keep drawing false connections between unrelated people and the real harassment he's receiving. Doing so won't stop the harassment, and it's going to torpedo GrapheneOS if something isn't done.

My hope has been that someone close to him that he trusts would set up an intervention. Maybe that's what resulted in him stepping down today. I hope this will improve the community situation around GrapheneOS (whose technical reputation remains, I think, totally unscathed), and I really hope Daniel will now get the mental health relief that he needs.

theFrequency3• 3 years ago

basically a high profile youtuber decided to weaponize his fanbase to smear and slander a talented developer because he couldn't get what he wanted out of him. Rossmann mischaracterizes his interactions with Micay and even attempts to used his admitted diagnosis of autism against him. He claims one thing but if you actually read the interactions yourself you'll notice Micay is upset but adamant about his allegations of harassment. Rossmann quite dismissive of his entire explanation and decides he has a better narrative that most people will swallow. Rossmann tone policing a talented dev off his own open source project is the latest in a long line of unwarranted cancellations

buzzy_hacker• 3 years ago

Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/DanielMicay/status/1662212227561308160?c...

JackGreyhat2• 3 years ago

A statement from the man himself:

https://twitter.com/DanielMicay/status/1662212227561308160

JackGreyhat2• 3 years ago

For those of you that want to stay on HN, and not visit twitter:

From @DanielMicay:

"I've stepped down as lead developer of GrapheneOS and will be replaced as a GrapheneOS Foundation director. I'll be ending my use of public social media. I'm unable to handle the escalating level of harassment including recent swatting attacks. There will be a smooth migration."

"I'm confident the project will be in good hands with the rest of the development team. I'll be training them to handle everything I used to do myself. I haven't been a particularly active developer for a while now and there will be little impact on ongoing feature development."

"One of our veteran developers will be taking over administration of the server infrastructure. Local infrastructure for official builds, signing and testing will be replicated in multiple locations and verified against each other to reduce trust in any particular location."

"I'm going to focus on recovery from everything that has transpired since 2018. I have not been doing well, particularly in the past few weeks, but there has been no break from it since 2018. The police know about the swatting situation and are preventing it happening again."

danjoredd3• 3 years ago

https://grapheneos.social/@DanielMicay

He is also posting the same to his Mastadon

CodeCompost2• 3 years ago

He just added this:

"To clarify what was said above, I am stepping down as a GrapheneOS Foundation director, not just lead developer. I won't have any leadership role in the GrapheneOS project. I plan on being entirely uninvolved but it'll take time to transfer everything that I do to other people."

CodeCompost2• 3 years ago

I'm out of the loop. What's up?

neilv• 3 years ago

Daniel Micay has been a rare powerhouse, founding and leading a great project.

From the little I'm aware, it sounded like he was being harassed, and some of his public comments sounded like he was powering through stress.

(PSA: Bad stress is bad. No matter how strong and resourceful and outwardly cool you are, the stress is not only unpleasant, but it's also secretly taking a toll. The smart move is to keep stress low.)

I wish Micay all the best for health and happiness. I hope that he doesn't let recent stresses get him down, and that he gives himself a chance to recharge.

dtx1• 3 years ago

Heads of to you Daniel, I am sure you are reading this. I still believe GrapheneOS to be the best custom rom out there by a mile and a half and I hope you will find a little more peace in your private life without social media! Thank you for all the work!

danjoredd3• 3 years ago

I am unaware of the drama surrounding GrapheneOS, though I have been using it on my Pixel phone for a while now. What happened? I understand that there was some SWATting, but I know nothing else of what caused it or why people are upset

kzrdude2• 3 years ago

"some swatting" sounds horrible enough as it is, it seems to me.

danjoredd3• 3 years ago

For sure! I'm just not sure why it happened

jet_32951• 3 years ago

Daniel, I am sorry your efforts caused you pain. I hold you in my utmost respect and hope you will master the pain your efforts have cost you.

orblivion7• 3 years ago

Seems to be some combination of inner and outer demons. Given what and how he's communicated, I'm really not sure what to think about what others have actually done to him at this point. I used to hold a grudge against him given his handling of the Copperhead situation, but now I have a lot more sympathy for him. Best of luck, and thank you for what you've built.

Atlas222• 3 years ago

I'm not aware of what others have done to him but his claims honestly wouldn't surprise me if they were accurate as he is quite well known for being publicly very rude regarding GrapheneOS.

My first interaction with him was asking about how to backup all data on GrapheneOS (including secure/restricted data). He flat out called me an idiot, said that it "defeats the point of grapheneos", and refused to help. Most of the help formats that he is available on are full of responses very similar to this from him. Hardly by any stretch of the imagination professional conduct.

I do love GrapheneOS and I'm sure managing it as he does/did is quite stressful. I don't have any Ill will towards him, just concern for him and the project. I think stepping down and getting away from social media will be a great move for both him and the project. He clearly wants some much needed time to recover and destress. Frankly, his public behavior was the biggest liability for the project but him stepping down is a good sign that at the very least he is making moves to start recovering.

orblivion7• 3 years ago

To be clear he's claiming (among other things) that someone swatted him. Do you mean it wouldn't surprise you that someone swatted him for being rude?

Given the way he's described certain interactions he's had with others, I take everything he says with a grain of salt. But then again, swatting is a pretty clear cut thing. So I dunno.

joemazerino8• 3 years ago

I completely understand where Louis Rossman is coming from. [1]

Daniel does not apologize for anything he says or does and refuses to acknowledge any wrongdoing. He still refuses to acknowledge that how he responded to Louis was wrong.

He hops on every thread of GrapheneOS and regularly accuses everyone of being sockpuppets and trolls. [2] He has accused me of being a Techlore and CalyxOS troll numerous times. Worst still, his community are full of psychophants that enable his abusive behavior. They refuse to see him or his outbursts as negative. They routinely collaborate to downvote comments and raid rooms to manage the narrative which I find to be underhanded.

I was an early Copperhead customer who was very disappointed that he got up and destroyed the signing keys without providing any evidence to back his claims up. When I brought up the issue to him via email, his response was to throw his previous business partner under the bus without offering any apologies for damaging my business.

I did use Android Hardening afterwards, used CopperheadOS for a bit and then moved back to LineageOS. I refuse to use any of his projects again.

I wish the best for him and hope he gets well. He's not mentally stable enough to run a project and he has a long way to go for understanding the nuance of interpersonal relationships.

1 - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4To-F6W1NT0

2 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33555221

orblivion7• 3 years ago

I was very similar to you, a resentful paying CopperheadOS customer. But now that I understand just how troubled the guy is, I forgive (but don't excuse) him. I also almost installed Lineage but it was too much trouble and I took the risk and went with Graphene.

I wonder what the psychophants are going to do now that he's not involved. Are they going to continue the same path? Is the project in the same precarious position as it was yesterday?

ThenAsNow• 3 years ago

First of all, I genuinely wish him well. He's an extremely talented developer, and we need more people focused on securing our digital infrastructure. My sentiments mirror what others here have said, hoping he can work his way through recovery and growth to be in a better place down the road. And if there really has been crazy stuff like swatting, that punishment is dealt to the perpetrators.

However, in his role leading a project that ostensibly wanted people to use it, he had a very offputting set of personality characteristics that worked against that goal. He was very opinionated and often condescending, frequently stating opinion as fact and being shallowly dismissive. I'm not talking about arguing with people asking that he add shiny baubles, but just generally almost annoyed the person he was talking to didn't realize the obviousness of their own stupidity in not seeing it his way.

Then, he had a gigantic victim complex where any comment that could be perceived as negative whatsoever was seen by him as some grave personal slight deliberately intended to hurt him. It wasn't sufficient for him to explain why he thought others were wrong. It was frequently accompanied by accusations of bad faith, of potential coordination with others trying to take him down, etc. It came across as hysteria. Not to mention the needless aggression with the Calyx developers, etc.

A few years ago, the IRC channel had a lot of this victimization and desperation-type content from him. It got to a point I was uncomfortable using GrapheneOS out of concern for the leadership and prospects of support.

It used to be Theo de Raadt of OpenBSD and to some extent Linus were benchmarks for "prickly" open source leaders, but I think Daniel gave them all quite a run for the money.

It's good that despite all that, Daniel managed to find some developers he could get along with and the contributor base grew beyond him. Here's to hoping the new leadership team steadies the ship and manages not to be so hostile to the community.

Edit to add: looking over the [2] link from parent, it's clear he did provide a lot of thoughtful, helpful answers as well, so I wouldn't want to downplay the great deal of good for which he's responsible. We're significantly better off that something like GrapheneOS exists.

kaba05• 3 years ago

I was an early Copperhead customer who was very disappointed that he got up and destroyed the signing keys without providing any evidence to back his claims up. When I brought up the issue to him via email, his response was to throw his previous business partner under the bus without offering any apologies for damaging my business.

That’s a shitty situation on your end, but he was stabbed in the back, and imo did the only morally right decision in case of a security-oriented project: pulled the plug on it as it could not be trusted anymore.

He was indeed quite paranoid, but it was not without reason — hopefully this resignation can help him recover mentally from all that.

Nonetheless, I am very grateful to him for this wonderful project, and even if you don’t use GrapheneOS directly, you definitely use many of his contributions to both the linux kernel and android!

joemazerino8• 3 years ago

That’s a shitty situation on your end, but he was stabbed in the back, and imo did the only morally right decision in case of a security-oriented project: pulled the plug on it as it could not be trusted anymore.

That is easy for you to say. Harder for me to swallow losing real life dollars to accusations that haven't materalized.

Considering we all have ample evidence that Micay slings accusations without merit, how can you be so sure the Copperhead situation went down the way he says? Micay routinely accuses people of stabbing him in his back. Louis Rossman included.

tinus_hn• 3 years ago

FYI where you type psychophants you mean sycophants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sycophancy

cf100clunk• 3 years ago

Although it could be seen as a neologism.

tholdem• 3 years ago

I strongly believe that GrapheneOS is one of the most important projects at the moment for several reasons. Nowadays it's almost impossible to live without a smartphone, it's one of the most used pieces of hardware that people use all day, and there are simply no other alternatives to GOS.

I can't thank you enough Daniel for your work on AOSP and GOS, and all the other work you've done around security and privacy.

revolvingocelot• 3 years ago

I know there's a lot of acrimony surrounding this fellow; the top comment is an excellent perspective on it, I suppose. That said, as awful as this may sound, that type of behaviour is indicative of exactly the sort of turbo-autism that I want aimed at hard problems like GrapheneOS.

lopkeny12ko• 3 years ago

There have been several allegations in this thread of Daniel's poor behavior, condescending attitude, and false construction of a harrassment narrative, but no one has yet shared any examples of such behavior.

theFrequency3• 3 years ago

it's always interesting to me how people try to pretend someone who is 'not as nice as i'd like" is somehow now a bad person and their cancellation is justified.

have they done anything legally wrong? Have they hurt anyone (besides feelings) You people are really something. This isn't grade school anymore, we are all adults here. Emotion doesn't translate through text, so stop being so sensitive and trying to tone police everyone.

joemazerino8• 3 years ago

A quick review of Daniel's comment history should suffice

https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=strcat

solarkraft• 3 years ago

This is informative and fortunate. I was real worried about the project's future after Louis Rossman's video.

Daniel accomplished a lot and I am thankful for it. I am also very happy about his decision to step down because it hopefully prevents splitting the community.

Absolutely the right call. Wishing him all the best.

Side note: Maybe a community split would've led to builds for more devices, which I would like. While of course you can't guarantee perfect security, you can be pretty sure it'll be better than the alternatives. I'm also surprised that the Play Services sandboxing hasn't been ported to other mainstream Android distributions yet.

luuurker• 3 years ago

Very smart and talented guy, but gets into fights too easily. I understand that getting swatted and harassed online is really bad, but the way he goes after people that call his behaviour out or use/support other projects is not good.

Stepping back for a while might do him good. Maybe he can come back later, with less stress, and focus on the code instead of dealing with the public relations (his weakness, I think).

For those harassing him, just stop. Honestly, it's not even fun. For those who defend and almost enable his out bursts, also stop because you're not helping him or the project.

theFrequency3• 3 years ago

It's pretty clear to me that Rossmann decided he would go after Micay to protect himself in some way. Louis has openly and proudly stated he has "no patience" for anyone with mental issues that aren't "putting in enough effort to be normal". he's made videos about this and commented to this effect. I believe Rossmann grew fustrated with Micay at some point and then decided to bait him into a reaction so he could take him out of context to.. i dont know get back at him? Its not very clear to me exactly why he would do this.. but i urge you to rewatch the original rossmann video with a sober eye. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4To-F6W1NT0& then watch this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Pj0Z2__SI

joemazerino8• 3 years ago

It isn't a good look to be a brand new account with only 4 posts all commenting on the same thread with an anti-Louis slant. Tom Sparks is clearly pro-Graphene and paints Micay as a victim. Many of us here have direct experience dealing with strcat and being accused of being trolls or part of a smear campaign.

dosssman2• 3 years ago

To quote your "Louis has openly and proudly stated he has "no patience" for anyone with mental issues ...", I would say he has not only demonstrated a great amount of support for the GOS project, but also a fair amount of patience with Micay.

Building upon this, I will further quote your " I believe Rossmann grew fustrated with Micay at some point and then decided to bait him into a reaction so he could take him out of context to.. i dont know get back at him? Its not very clear to me exactly why he would do this."

How is it a bait when Rossmann privately tried to clear up the misunderstanding about GOS and Micay's situation with Micay in private, which did not pan out 8 months ago. He asked Micay to stop contacting him about his "Informative, but unfortunate comment" on Techlore's video, even offering a fresh start for Micay to give his perspective. Instead, the latter doubled down on accusations that Rossmann was supporting harassing campaign against him. Please keep in mind that this was around 8 months ago. Then Micay contacts him out of the blue in a few days ago, threatening to "ban him and expose him publicly", but this is somehow Rossmann baiting him ?

Maybe you could share with us some missing information that shows how Micay was baited ?

Tom Spark video is hardly fair, as it omits a lot of important information that better shows Rossmann's perspective, just like your comment seems to be doing. His comment section in my opinion is a handcrafted echo chamber that supports Micay, as I left a few comments that addresses the weak point in Tom's analysis, but they have yet to appear in public. Meanwhile, comments that echo his perspetive, which were also left after my comment were left through, and one was even pinned.

In any case, have a nice day.

sciolistse• 3 years ago

I had the exact same experience commenting on that Tom Sparks video, so my guess is that you're right about the echo chamber.

Daniel Micay publicly steps down from GrapheneOS

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