PaperKarma - take a photo, eliminate junk mail

https://www.paperkarma.com/

by calvin • 14 years ago

148 68 14 years ago

camtarn3• 14 years ago

The site could use a little more explanation. The app store page reveals that behind the scenes, there's a database of junk mail logos mapped to the unsubscribe page/contract details for each piece of mail, and taking a photo causes an unsubscribe request to be sent (with unrecognized junk mail added to a queue to be investigated). That's an awesome idea :)

It's also available for Android, which the site doesn't make clear (I left the site thinking "pity it's only on iOS", and only realised when i hit "get the app" to see if the app page had more detail).

Finally, neither the site nor the app page says whether this works outside the US - I'm assuming it's US-only?

joshu• 14 years ago

Agreed. They could also have a blog on how to stop paperspam and get a bunch of traffic for marketing their app. Also a tech blog (how does the image detection work?) etc.

smortaz18• 14 years ago

Cofounder here...

camtarn - you're quite right & thanks for confirming our hunches. Will update the site during the next couple of days (UI & text). thx.

camtarn3• 14 years ago

Sweet :) I'd been wondering if it was a mobile site issue (should probably have pointed out that I was browsing from my Android phone, oops.)

Have now read your blog post, and am really wishing it was available in the UK now - the mechanism of getting something through your door, taking a photo, and being assured that you won't get any more is amazing... like a 'flag as spam' link for physical items. Very nicely done!

anigbrowl3• 14 years ago

What? Unless they've changed it in the last few minutes, there's an android logo smack in the middle of the page.

abscondment• 14 years ago

Other co-founder here-

The logos weren't shown on mobile devices up until a few moments ago. Now they're visible everywhere.

jgeerts• 14 years ago

Awesome idea, but it won't work for some magazines, certainly at the start. Most spam will go unrecognized or am I wrong?

smortaz18• 14 years ago

Thx jgeerts - essentially junk mail can be put into to two broad categories: ones for which your name appears on a "list" somewhere & ones that are carpet bombed across zip codes/routes.

The former has a pretty decent chance -- pretty high with reputable companies, esp mags/catalogs/credit cards/etc. The latter, it's case by case. Some honor it (eg Valpak), some have no way of suppressing you.

In either case we provide you Sender info (click on the company tab) w information in case you want to give them a piece of your mind :).

rplnt• 14 years ago

Those bullets showing at which "frame" are you. You can't switch between them manually which makes them kind of pointless. I couldn't read what I want and it took me some time to read through all of it. Also, second and third bullet have the same text. When the photo changed it made me read it again.

After reading through I still knew nothing. Market description was much more informative.

PS: It should be geographically blocked on markets (is it possible?) as I guess it only works in USA

smortaz18• 14 years ago

Feedback taken to heart rpint - changes coming. thx.

jazzychad• 14 years ago

This is a great idea, but as a paranoid privacy nut I'm a little hesitant to fork over my info to a company I don't really know. The potential upside is so tempting, though.

Has anyone had experience with this app yet?

masonlee• 14 years ago

I agree that some prominent privacy statements would be very helpful given that the target audience hates being targeted for junk mail.

smortaz18• 14 years ago

jazzychat we're both extremely privacy conscious individuals and from day one pledged our own version of Do No Evil. In fact, during sign up, we ask for minimal info to get the unsubscribes processed: ie name & address -- which by the way the junk mailers /already have/ since they're sending you stuff.

Beyond that, some companies require your email address. We don't give them out. We supply a proxied email to ensure they dont get anything beyond what they have already. Hope this helps...

Our blog has a bit more info: http://www.paperkarma.com/blog/

edit: grammar - it's 2am & brain is running on one core in low power mode...

ajays• 14 years ago

" which by the way the junk mailers /already have/ since they're sending you stuff. "

Not necessarily. A lot of times junk mail is directed to just the address, and not the resident. You can tell that by the "To" line, which will say "Current resident" or "resident". They pay the USPS to carpet bomb each and every mailbox with their catalog. This service won't be able to do much about that.

webwright• 14 years ago

I know the founders. Great hackers and decent folks.

mvanveen• 14 years ago

This seems like a really cool idea that I'd like to try, except I have no idea how taking a picture will do anything for anyone.

Can you please elaborate or provide some explanation so I can understand? Thanks!

smortaz18• 14 years ago

mvanveen, here's a link to our blog post which goes into a little more detail: http://www.paperkarma.com/blog/

In short, we don't do anything that you couldn't do yourself... we just make it a tad bit less painful.

The general pipeline is this: scans come in, they get processed (human/OCR), the company is looked up, request to unsubscribe is sent, your phone is updated. In 2 months we follow up with you to make sure they honored the request. If not, we'll follow up with them on your behalf (by our lawyer - FTC FTW).

The app basically provides convenience. We've just spent a year building up a database of who manages customer lists at what company, who the privacy officer is, whether they have customer suppression lists, etc. That's where rubber & asphalt really meet. As with each scan that comes in the DB improves.

*OCR is experimental: mixed results.

Hope this helps!

edit:formatting

itmag• 14 years ago

Would be interesting to hear how you scale a semi-automated business like that?

Terretta• 14 years ago

I get junk mail to a PO Box and two street addresses. Most of our junk mail is my SO's name, some of it's in mine. When I subscribe to a magazine, I sometimes use a different middle initial, which tells me who sells my address. AFAIK, none of them have our phone numbers.

How does this work for varying names in the household and multiple addresses?

We receive 8 inches of junk mail every two weeks, mostly catalogs and CC offers, so can't wait to try this once I know how I can use it for our situation.

anigbrowl3• 14 years ago

Personally, I found it blindingly obvious and look forward to trying it tomorrow. If it works I will give this company all my money (well not literally you understand, but I hate paper junk mail with a passion and I hate the USPS management for insisting that it's the mainstay of their economic planning...idiots). This is made of win as far as I am concerned - which probably means it's a smallish market, but hopefully large enough to make a profit from.

Which brings me to my question: I can see what the consumer benefit is immediately, but what's the business model if not large-scale group analytics? Will advertising/marketing firms pay to understand what sort of customers they do not connect with?

smortaz18• 14 years ago

Thanks anigbrowl... your comment is very inspiring!

Re Biz model: priority one is getting enough of a user base so we have a ticket to the dance. After that there are several possibilities, some of which are implemented already, but not activated:

1. N free scan per month, in app purchase for more for some $. or $/year. 2. some non-obnoxious ads, esp for compliant companies that honor unsubscribe requests 3. PK is really about mailbox management: get what you want & only what you want -- and push as much as possible toward digital versions. eg: I love Costco. But i don't want receive their catalog & kill trees. I rather PK -- with my explicit permission/opt in -- sign me up to receive E-coupons or a digital version of the Cotsco Shopper. At the end of the month when I visit Costco I just grab my E-coupons or read their catalog on my iPad... In summary: we save Costco printing/delivery costs & provide them with an opt-in customer & charge Costco: win/win.

Ideally we'd like to push for #3 & keep the app free.

Hope this helps!

anigbrowl3• 14 years ago

That's useful to know. We just bought a house and are in mid-move (some renovations still going on) and I have been fascinated to see how junk mail companies (ab)use prublic records to extend their reach. I look forward to trying the service.

aridiculous• 14 years ago

My first thoughts about monetization: 1) allow people to sign up for catalogs too. I know that sounds insane to you, but I think a lot of people woul like a place to go to get stuff from stores and categories they like. That's easily monetized with the vendors themselves as part of their customer acquisition cost.

2) Even if you just stuck to removing from lists, you're actually providing value to the the direct mailers. They have one less printing and postage item cost that would have either been useless or pissed someone off. That could be over a dollar per household saved with each mailing.

kapilkale• 14 years ago

Great idea.

IMO the tagline on the HN post is far more effective than the one on the site. I'd explain this to a friend as "Take a picture of your junk mail, and this app automatically unsubscribes you from it". Things like "save the earth" confuse me.

A description of how you actually unsubscribe would be helpful too, for the curious and the skeptical. "We automatically contact the junk-mailer for you and have you removed from their subscriber list."

smortaz18• 14 years ago

This is why I love HN. Great advice & to the point :). We actually experimented with various msgs & lots of people resonated with the Environmental angle. Here are some mind numbing stats:

1. Over 100,000,000,000 pieces of junk mail per year sent in the US

2. 18 pieces of junk mail for 1 that you actually care about

3. Several -months- of your life spent processing junk mail (!)

4. 100s of thousands of dollars spent by cities (ie, your tax money) on post processing, landfills, etc.

& Nevermind the carbon footprint from manufacturing, processing & delivery of junk mail...

re Description: check!

Cheers,

blauwbilgorgel• 14 years ago

I had no clue what the app did untill I visited the "about" page. Normally I don't have the patience.

The snippet explained me the entire app. Perhaps some of it belongs on the home page.

  How does PaperKarma work?

  The PaperKarma app enables you simply snap a picture of
  your unwanted junk mail, press Send, and get 
  unsubscribed. That's it! Just snap your junk mail away. 
  (In about 24 hours you'll receive a notification that 
  you've been unsubscribed. You can always use the app to 
  check on the status of your unsubscribe requests.)

A video/animation showing the unsubscribe process could also help clarify the purpose of the app.

Those stats are great hooks, but I doubt your potential users would need convincing. You stop spam for yourself first and foremost, that it helps the environment is a nice add-on.

yogrish• 14 years ago

yes, its a great idea. A description of how you do would be helpful.

urbanjunkie• 14 years ago

I'm assuming this is a US only service - you should probably make that clearer if so.

Maxious• 14 years ago

"This item cannot be installed in your device's country." :<

smortaz18• 14 years ago

Sorry about this folks - we'll make it more explicit :(. Also would love to find out which countries you're from & how bad the junk mail problem is over there. thx.

lucaspiller• 14 years ago

Looks interesting, but yeah, going on previous comments:

1) How does it work? I can see how the app works, take a photo and magic happens, but what is that magic that stops me receiving junk mail?

2) Does it work outside the US?

smortaz18• 14 years ago

Thx lucaspiller: some info in this thread + blog post at: http://www.paperkarma.com/blog

Sadly US only for now. Where do you live & is there a junk mail problem there if i may ask?

keeptrying• 14 years ago

Can you make the "Available on the App Store" clickable? I kept pressing that with my finger till I saw the "Download App Here" link ...

Great idea. And if it works - you guys are awesome and I will let my facebook peeps know !

tissarah• 14 years ago

Have you checked out Catalog Choice? They have something similar called MailStop... https://www.catalogchoice.org/mailstop

smortaz18• 14 years ago

Yup. We've been in open beta for a long time (contacted some of the same folks/ppl that they do)... wondering if we inspired them ;). Flattered if so. We like CC - they're good people.

tyrelb• 14 years ago

Up here in Canada we use this: http://www.reddotcampaign.ca/

You put a red dot (i.e. a red sticker, any sticker) in your mailbox, and they will NOT put junk mail in.

useflyer• 14 years ago

Catalog Choice is a nonprofit which has been around for years and has over a million members. 'Inspiration' clearly flows the other direction.

JoshTriplett3• 14 years ago

Looks awesome; I'd love to use this service. Would you consider providing an API for image uploads, so that people could use the site without an Android or iOS phone? (For example, using a smartphone you don't support, or just sticking junk mail on a scanner.)

cemerick• 14 years ago

It's a great idea, and I have it queued to be installed to my Android phone.

Q: how does this make money? Do large commercial mailers actually pay to have a streamlined unsubscribe mechanism, or is there another customer that I'm missing?

cpr• 14 years ago

Is the removal process automated, or are you relying on something like Amazon's Mechanical Turk?

smortaz18• 14 years ago

cpr some image recognition & company info gathering(url/adrs/phone/...) uses Mturk, the rest is automated.

joblessjunkie• 14 years ago

What's the business upside?

Once you've got millions of people uploading photos of their junk mail along with their names and home addresses, how is this monetized?

EDIT: I ask, because this is where the privacy paranoia comes in.

vannevar2• 14 years ago

It seems like building a database confirming which kinds of direct mail people don't like would be valuable. If nothing else, it would provide a way to update the names on direct marketing mailing lists (for direct mail that hasn't yet been stopped).

JoshTriplett3• 14 years ago

> It seems like building a database confirming which kinds of direct mail people don't like would be valuable. If nothing else, it would provide a way to update the names on direct marketing mailing lists (for direct mail that hasn't yet been stopped).

That seems like the slimiest of all possible options.

JoshTriplett3• 14 years ago

Seems like the best approach would involve making this a paid service, possibly with a free version allowing up to N pieces of junk mail. I'd pay for this service for as long as I continue receiving junk mail.

smortaz18• 14 years ago

jj - addressed this below somewhat in reply to anigbrowl. Essentially N free + charge for more; polite Ads; Paper to digital conversions & charging companies. Mostly likely some combination.

randomdrake• 14 years ago

I'm sort of torn by this. I really love the idea but the site doesn't do a very good job explaining how it works or what is going on.

While it seems like you're attempting to tell a story of the process on the front page, you're getting the user lost.

Pardon me while I take the time to list a few gripes but please note that it's only because I really love this idea.

1) Your very first screen is a picture of buttons that appear to be pointed at a tree, with "Take a Photo" prominently displayed. When I see that, the most eye-popping thing on the page, I see nothing about what the app does. It looks like it's for taking pictures in nature.

2) The phone book. Really? For junk mail? Phone books + mobile apps have a very distinct connection. It's confusing, again, when I see you taking photos of a phone book. Does that mean I get to import phone numbers some how? I'd recommend starting with that original piece of junk mail.

3) Take us on the journey and let us step back and forth. As another user commented, let us move with the bullet points. They're useless otherwise.

4) Story that makes sense:

Picture of junk mail. "Take a picture of the junk mail you don't want to receive."

Show the logo highlighted -- "Our system identifies the logo associated with the junk mail."

A picture indicating a message. -- "We notify the organization on your behalf to stop sending junk mail."

Show the logo or the picture in the success screen -- "We will notify you upon the success of removing you from their mailing list."

Let us see the life of that single piece of junk mail all the way through, in every step of the story, so we have something to follow.

5) Since you've decided to go down the route of associating this service with a message of doing good for the world, why not make that a more prominent point? A big "Why?" link underneath your black bar with a popup that showed the information and numbers you gave us in your comment http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3570470 would be a nice addition.

Anywho, just a few ideas. I think you've got a good thing going here and for the right reasons, too. Hopefully you will take the ideas folks have here to heart.

ctdonath• 14 years ago

Is the process reversible? Watching the slideshow, I was going "what's this...ah...really?...hey, yeah, really, I get it! neat...whadayamean Victoria's Secret was stopped?!?! Bring it back! bring it back! undo! reverse!" and could then see myself in a frenzy of point-tap-unsubscribe then realizing I didn't mean to unsubscribe from something important (bills, magazine, fun catalog, whatever).

smortaz18• 14 years ago

Actually in the next major update it will be able to do that for some things. ie, you can select what you receive in paper form, & what to receive in your email box. So you can revert & say 'bring back paper V.S.'! Essentially you'll get a dial to control what you get in what form. Will work best mags/cats/etc.

curiousepic• 14 years ago

Can you simply change the account information to, for example, help your parents stop junkmail to their address?

If so, make sure to advertise that you can help others do this in addition to your home address.

smortaz18• 14 years ago

Yup! We've made the Name/Adrs field editable so you can temporarily change to grandma's name/adrs, zap her mail away & reset to yours. Next version will have multiple stored adrs support. thx & will make that more prominent.

atacrawl• 14 years ago

This is a great idea, but I have some constructive criticism about your marketing site:

1) Basically, I think the slideshow is pretty ineffective.

a) Why is the first slide a picture of tree branches? It doesn't help me understand what the app does. b) It's not obvious at all that you can switch among slides by clicking the phone, and the slow timer compounds that fact. c) The copy is too far removed from the images, and also isn't highlighted in any meaningful way, hindering its effectiveness.

My solution to this would be to record a short, snappy video to place inside the phone "frame" (which I find to be effective). If you want to use photos, do so in a section below the video in more of a step-by-step format.

2) Your marketing message needs some distilling.

a) Don't mention saving the earth. I think it distracts from what the app actually does and why someone should download it. You have a great idea! Push that idea and push it hard. b) Overall, there are too many words. For instance, "PaperKarma helps you get rid of paper junk mail and save the Earth at the same time" could be shortened to "Get rid of junk mail" and would be more effective. The initial pitch needs to be boiled down to its essence.

3) I think the overall look of the site isn't very polished and belies the quality of the app.

smortaz18• 14 years ago

Thanks atacrawl. Neither of us is designer and we've received the msg loud & clear from HN that we've got some work to do in that department! Will take all your feedback to heart. Updates coming soon.

jasonlgrimes• 14 years ago

I love this. I was an early adopter and have been using it since release. Keep at it!

PaperKarma - take a photo, eliminate junk mail

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