John Deere 'Kill Switch' renders stolen tractors useless (2022)

https://www.orchardandvine.net/news/john-deere-%E2%80%98kill-switch%E2%80%99-renders-stolen-tractors-useless/

by ropable • 3 years ago

75 64 3 years ago

orchardandvine.net

francoisdevlin• 3 years ago

That's a nice tractor you've got there. It'd be a shame if something happened to it.

Can I interest you in some protection... Err, 3 year service plan?

olliej5• 3 years ago

Activation lock for phones was demonstrably effective at reducing theft of the products it was applied to, so _if_ theft of tractors is an issue this seems like a good thing, _if_ JD is also willing to commit to/legally required to maintain the activation service.

8organicbits• 3 years ago

I thought phone theft was still fairly common, although I have a hard time understanding how it's profitable.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/04/bathroom-tunneling-b...

gommm• 3 years ago

My phone (a samsung s21 ultra) was snatched from my hand while I was using it to check google maps in Barcelona. I tried to remote wipe it 5 minutes later at my hotel but it had already been disconnected. So the thief was very quick at removing the sim card.

I checked online since and it seems that even with the advent activation lock, there's still a lot of phone thefts in some countries. They just sell the spare parts and can make 100 to 200 euros between the screen and battery.

I'd imagine with John Deere tractors, there's quite a few parts that could be resold so an activation lock wouldn't necessarily reduce the value by that much.

makeitdouble• 3 years ago

I'm not sure we have proof it's that effective. Recently 400+ phones were stolen from a store in a well prepared way, so I assume there's plenty of ways to work around or get value from the stolen phones despite whatever Apple is doing:

https://www.macrumors.com/2023/04/06/washington-apple-store-...

15155• 3 years ago

Under normal, non-war circumstances, tractor theft isn't a thing.

antibasilisk• 3 years ago

I can protect you

<huh, from what?

myself (:

Gigachad2• 3 years ago

Tbh this seems not that problematic. I get that there is a lot of distasteful stuff going on around John Deere, but I think it's useful to see this on it's own which is a useful feature.

Account locks have done a huge amount to reduce phone theft, a tractor is 100x more expensive.

BiteCode_dev2• 3 years ago

Yes, but phones have a reason to be online most of the time.

A vehicle should be able to be used without ever being online.

Otherwise you are at the mercy of udpates, the provider good will (and John Deere as little), network availability and so on.

anilakar• 3 years ago

So are CNC machines. Are you aware that if you move a modern one, it's gonna be bricked?

eimrine2• 3 years ago

What is your definition of useful?

In more lawful areas a theft can not use a stolen tractor because of police. Since Eastern Europe is not so lawful, the owner will not receive new tractor or something.

So where is a good use coming from in your understanding?

Just from the fact that the theft will receive $30k in cash instead of $100k as the tractor cost? And that is the reason to buy a tractor with a killswitch which in some another situation (used not original parts, insulted the JD team, did something against ToS) might be activated AGAINST the owner?

skywal_l• 3 years ago

It's a nice PR action for John Deere. Now US farmers know that if Russia invade the US, JD will have their back. But barring a russian invasion, how many tractors are being stolen in the US every year? I don't think this is a real problem.

And we are talking about a state actor here. I am sure that Russia can find a way to bypass the lock and if not, as mentioned in the article, they will sell the parts.

However, if I was a farmer, I wouldn't want JD to have that level of control on my property. I would want JD to handle that control to me, ideally under the form of public and documented API and free software.

alpaca128• 3 years ago

I'm not sure what's not distasteful about the manufacturer having the power to turn your investment into a brick at any time, potentially blocking any customer request with "you violated the terms of service".

Paul-Craft• 3 years ago

Account locks have done a huge amount to reduce phone theft, a tractor is 100x more expensive.

Based on an iPhone 14 @ $1500 and what I saw on a price list I googled, John Deere tractors seem to range from around $40k to around $575k. That's a really wide range, from 20x to nearly 400x as expensive.

https://commercialvehicleinfo.com/john-deere-tractors-price-...

olliej5• 3 years ago

Activation lock is an excellent and super effective mechanism for theft prevention so this seems like a good thing, but it also makes me curious about how common theft of high end tractors is?

anticensor• 3 years ago

Basically never, because when somebody steals a tractor, they really do it because they need it, nobody would intentionally steal a tractor and there is no such thing as negligent or accidental theft.

eimrine2• 3 years ago

Activation lock may the that excellent if the buyer would have a choice to buy it or not going to risk having an unactivated tractor.

zdragnar• 3 years ago

A quick google search shows claims of 1000 / month for heavy ag equipment, with under 20% recovery rate.

A remote kill switch seems like a useful bit of kit if it's not easily disabled and doesn't interfere with normal operations.

ggm• 3 years ago

This relates to John Deere tractors which were expropriated by Russians in the occupation of Ukraine.

What remains a problem is the thorny question of field-modifications by farmers who find out leasing rights to software isn't the same as owning an old Fordson or Massey-Furguson and hacking on the PTO.

John Deere has a 'right to repair' conversation going on in the USA but they trade internationally.

unglaublich• 3 years ago

This is the different sign of the same coin.

Not you, but JD controls the kill-switch.

They can disable a device to render it useless whenever something happens that they don't like.

Whether it's theft or violation of your leasing terms.

If the owner was in control of the kill-switch, it would still have all benefits of theft protection, without the problems that arise with a manufacturer controlling devices indefinitely.

least• 3 years ago

If the owner was in control of the kill-switch, it would still have all benefits of theft protection, without the problems that arise with a manufacturer controlling devices indefinitely.

Apple has a similar feature for its devices that is in control of the user, but ultimately it's still depends on the device connecting to the internet and getting a ping that it's "lost" from Apple's servers. There's not really anything stopping Apple from locking people's devices, either.

I just feel like "self hosting" isn't a real company solution to a kill switch, so I'm not sure how you have a kill switch without interacting with the company in any way, even if you're not John Deere.

artogahr• 3 years ago

At that scale it should be trivial to self host a server with a static IP that confirms the ownership. Make the server IP on the tractor password protected or smth. Modern tractors are internet connected anyway.

notjulianjaynes2• 3 years ago

I had it in my head that a new John Deere tractor costs about $400 thousand but I just did a very quick search and I'm seeing closer to $1 million for a combine. At this price point I don't see IT logistics being a huge barrier to a customer controlled kill switch.

Edit: wording

jtxt• 3 years ago

- User setup geo fence.

- Requires connection to phone, nfc, other radio signal...

- and/or other deadman switch ideas...

forgotmypw17• 3 years ago

My Apple device was locked without ever being reported stolen. Just happened one day. It is an older iPad which belonged to family member who has passed on and has a bunch of photos and notes on it. I was a fool to provide that device for them to use no matter how convenient it was at the time.

donmcronald• 3 years ago

I just feel like "self hosting" isn't a real company solution to a kill switch, so I'm not sure how you have a kill switch without interacting with the company in any way, even if you're not John Deere.

You can’t have any (online) interaction with the company. Even OTA updates can’t be trusted if the company wants to act against your interests or the interests of your country.

Individual farmers need 100% control and I would argue that the only way to accomplish that is to require physical access for all updates and no kill switch at all.

Tractors aren’t close to cell phones. No one is naively and unknowingly buying a stolen tractor off of Craigslist. Engraving serial numbers on parts is a viable theft deterrent if everyone in the industry refuses to buy stolen parts.

MrOwnPut• 3 years ago

If you're leasing it from them, you're not the owner, they are.

jjtheblunt• 3 years ago

If the owner were in control of the kill-switch, and the owner were killed, perhaps by Russian forces, then the tractor is stolen?

asdfman123• 3 years ago

This astroturf makes me feel so warm and fuzzy

wrp• 3 years ago

Have there been any reports on how easy it is to jailbreak these? I would expect technique in that area to be well-developed.

John Deere 'Kill Switch' renders stolen tractors useless (2022)

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