Ryan Dahl steps down

http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs/browse_thread/thread/85f6a3829bc64cb6

by rhdoenges • 14 years ago

387 64 14 years ago

groups.google.com

sunils34• 14 years ago

Congratulations Isaac! I worked with him at Kno. Node.js is in good hands.

At his introduction to the company at Kno, all he said was: "My name is Isaac. I do javascript."

cleverjake• 14 years ago

Wow, what was the last language whose creator stepped down so quickly? Either way, Isaac has been a huge source of energy since the beginning, so im glad its going to him.

Congrats all around

pistoriusp• 14 years ago

He didn't invent the language. Just a platform that runs a language.

petercooper• 14 years ago

Inane trivia alert.. Ryan was at the helm of Node.js 2009-2012. The original JRuby creator, Jan Arne Petersen, was at the helm 2001-2004.

seldo• 14 years ago

Congratulations izs :-)

mvanveen• 14 years ago

What does this mean for the Node community at large?

I recently had the pleasure of checking out the NodeUp podcasts. A large portion of the first episode is dedicated to enforcing the notion that Node is a new language, and that it will take decades to catch up to the maturity that Python and Perl provide as platforms.

Opening up a subprocess, or having an `os` module which works in Windows, for example, all seemed like daunting tasks that took other languages decades to perfect.

While I'm sure Node can catch up quickly, partly because Javascript is fast to write, and partly because of the trailblazing that other languages have already done (among other reasons, I'm sure), I can't help but think that the loss of the original author's momentum behind the project will cause Node to suffer.

Python has had Guido as the BDFL for over 20 years. Larry Wall is firmly entrenched in the church of Perl. Having one voice shepherding the direction of the language has had tremendous influence on both languages. I can't help but think that node.js is in a similar situation.

techwraith• 14 years ago

The difference is that node.js is just an environment for an already established language to run on. Ryan accomplished a lot of great stuff with node, and Isaac will do the same. JavaScript != Node.

devongovett• 14 years ago

node.js isn't a language.

pors• 14 years ago

Linux isn't a language either, but they have Linus since forever.

Animus73• 14 years ago

> Having one voice shepherding the direction of the language has had tremendous influence on both languages. I can't help but think that node.js is in a similar situation.

Not really. Node.js isn't a language that needs direction; ECMAScript is a separate standard with its own drivers. Node isn't even an implementation of a language, and V8 has its own community directing it.

Node is a small core with pretty simple principles. The rest (the most important part, I'd argue) is a thriving third-party community, and that's something the loss of any single developer won't change.

gcr• 14 years ago

> Opening up a subprocess

I'd take require('child_process') over python's subprocess any day.

travisglines• 14 years ago

node.js is different. It's not a language, it's a small/extensible set of tools built on top of a solid language, and VM (V8) that are very mature.

Node.js is in great hands with Isaac. Unlike many other web/network platforms node doesn't go around gobbling up everything into core. The community behind node is stronger and contributes more than I've seen before. Focusing on that third party module system experience is a good move to further grow the community, one that Isaac has been heading for a while.

While many people will see the BDFL stepping down from a project as a bad sign, I think its the opposite. It has a dedicated and invested company behind it (Joyent), it's core doesn't try to do too much, it has legs of its own strong enough and it's community fault tolerant enough to grow quickly without him.

Ryan spawned a project that grew a community that in the long run isn't reliant on him, a rare achievement of platform/language creators.

rhdoenges• 14 years ago

This change is a sign of Node's shift from improving the core to making modules work better. I see it that way, at least. Isaac is the author of npm after all.

baudehlo6• 14 years ago

Unfortunately the core is missing some significant features, whereas modules work pretty well already (though I can see room for doing pre-compiled binary modules like "PPM" does for Perl on Windows).

Cherian• 14 years ago

The mark of a great leader is in training new leaders to replace him. That is height of unselfishness.

emehrkay• 14 years ago

Pure conjecture, but didn't he start complaining/ranting about programming around the time Node.js for Windows was being developed? Maybe it burned him out.

ambertch2• 14 years ago

Valid conjecture, but I think Ryan's always had that about him ("Camelcase... how cute")

Encosia• 14 years ago

Weren't those complaints about nix's complexity though? The complaints about things like the nix filesystem were specific enough that it's a stretch to point toward Windows.

alexhaefner2• 14 years ago

Does anyone have a link that doesn't require me to login to see this?

CrazedGeek• 14 years ago

"Now that the rewrite on top of libuv is largely complete, I am ceding my position as gatekeeper to Isaac Schlueter. Our energy will now be largely focused over the next few months on improving the third party module system experience including a website for browsing modules, a new addon build system, and binary installations from npm. Isaac is in the unique position to bridge the gap between core and external modules to ensure a pleasant experience. After three years of working on Node, this frees me up to work on research projects. I am still an employee at Joyent and will advise from the sidelines but I won't be involved in the day-to-day bug fixes. Isaac has final say over what makes it into the releases. Appeals for new features, changes, and bug fixes should now be directed at him. "

davvid• 14 years ago

Does anyone have a link that doesn't require me to login to see this?

This is a google groups quirk.

If you are logged into a google account it will prompt you. If you sign out of your google accounts then you can read it without being logged in.

alexhaefner2• 14 years ago

I am not logged into my google account.

obtu2• 14 years ago

That happens when google groups detects a cookie indicating someone logged in to google at some point in the past.

antirez• 14 years ago

It makes a lot of sense to move forward at some point, but this time the timing is a bit suspicious: now that node.js started to have a lot of traction the lead developer stepping down is a bit unexpected. My guess is that there is some very exciting new adventure in the Ryan's future, or that sometimes three years are simply enough from a "feelings" point of view. Anyway best fishes for the future.

EDIT: edited a bit in the form to make my thought more clear.

grandalf• 14 years ago

Is this equivalent to DHH stepping down?

asktell• 14 years ago

No.

georgemcbay• 14 years ago

Clearly not.

If this situation were anything like DHH stepping down there would be a lot more swearing involved.

PLejeck• 14 years ago

I feel incredibly sorry for Isaac. First he fell into maintaining NPM, now he gets to deal with Node too.

Best of luck to him, he's sure gonna need it!

forgotAgain• 14 years ago

negative: It would have been nice to see a 1.0 release before this happened.

positive: Without the originator in place perhaps a more formal product infrastructure can be put in place by Joyent. I'm thinking in particular about a structure for the documentation of primary third party modules like Connect and Express. At present the readme's and examples on Git, Sencha, and ExpressJs are all done by the original module developers. They're good but like most documentation done by the original developers make too many assumptions about what readers know. I don't mean to be too critical but if users are going to Stackoverflow for answers then there is a problem.

Animus73• 14 years ago

> It would have been nice to see a 1.0 release before this happened.

I dunno, a lot of big players are using node in production, and the back-compat's getting reasonable. Why does the number when you type -v matter?

> Without the originator in place perhaps a more formal product infrastructure can be put in place by Joyent. I'm thinking in particular about a structure for the documentation of primary third party modules...

I think that's the opposite of what Node needs. All of these third party modules came about precisely because there's no blockers or infrastructure to getting started with extending Node. The documentation for some of these modules could definitely be better, but I don't think having a central authority imposing upon the community is a good solution.

> I don't mean to be too critical but if users are going to Stackoverflow for answers then there is a problem.

The reason SO is so huge is precisely because users of pretty much anything will always have problems. Node is not, and never will be, an exception.

mikeryan• 14 years ago

At present the readme's and examples on Git, Sencha, and ExpressJs are all done by the original module developers

I don't get this. Why would a core team be responsible for the documentation of 3rd party modules.

Node has some serious documentation issues but I'm not sure how Ryan or Joyent is responsible for anything outside of anything under nodejs.org/docs

mcantelon• 14 years ago

Isaac is awesome. I have no fear about the continual deft shepherding of Node.

icefox• 14 years ago

down from what?

laughinghan• 14 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDFL

WayneDB2• 14 years ago

Sorry to be negative, but I hope this doesn't mean that we're going to start seeing more of node's code in the npm style.

eaurouge• 14 years ago

I hope not.

Edit: I don't know of too many prominent JavaScript programmers who prefer not to use semicolons. http://dailyjs.com/2012/01/12/style/

Zancarius2• 14 years ago

One of the better arguments I can think up against the npm coding style is probably found in the Matador framework, specifically its router: https://github.com/Obvious/matador/blob/master/src/router.js

Note: I actually rather like Matador. I just find this particular style--high density, no semicolons--much harder on my eyes. I'm sure many others can read it better than I can, however.

IsaacSchlueter7• 14 years ago

Node.js and npm use different JS styles. They're different programs with different places in their community. That's not changing.

IsaacSchlueter7• 14 years ago

Thanks everyone for the huge vote of confidence. I'm flattered and overwhelmed by the response.

ambertch2• 14 years ago

Of course :) You stepping in and writing NPM was HUGE! Along with Ryan, you and guys like Tim, Guillermo, TJ, Felix, now Bert and others really got the ship pointed in the right direction

james33• 14 years ago

I sort of had a feeling this was coming for a while. Isaac has been doing more and more of the release updates on the blog, not to mention the increasing shift in commits on GitHub from Ryan to Isaac.

johnx123-up• 14 years ago

Some rumor... Joyent has taken this decision. Can anyone confirm please?

IsaacSchlueter7• 14 years ago

There is no validity to that rumor, that I'm aware of.

no-espam• 14 years ago

This is very surprising. Node is not mature yet and the guy with "the vision" is stepping down. Makes you wonder if node is heading in a direction different than Ryan envisioned and it's no longer a labor of love.

perfunctory2• 14 years ago

Hm. I am just wondering if it wouldn't be better if Ryan could make living of Node and therefore could stay to work on it. How does one make living of Node ... em, charge for it, maybe? Is it so radical to suggest that Node could be a paid product.

obtu2• 14 years ago

Ryan and Isaac were both hired by Joyent after becoming established in the node community. Everyone seems happy with this being an open-source project.

perfunctory2• 14 years ago

I thought Ryan already worked at Joyent before he started his work on node.

I didn't say it should be closed-source. Paid doesn't preclude open source.

Ryan Dahl steps down

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