Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

https://compactmag.com/article/anatomy-of-a-book-cancellation

by jseliger • 3 years ago

53 51 3 years ago

compactmag.com

Overtonwindow• 3 years ago

Cancel culture is modern day book burning.

a3w2• 3 years ago

edit: chatGPT version of my posting:

While I acknowledge that the spread of hateful messages online can lead to tragic consequences, such as suicide, it is difficult to determine which political side causes more harm through speech. The impact of speech on individuals varies greatly, and not all individuals are equally resilient to criticism.

In my opinion, businesses with a monopoly must serve all customers regardless of their beliefs or opinions. However, businesses without a monopoly are free to work with whomever they please, as long as they don't discriminate based on factors like ethnicity or gender. The rejection of a message or idea is not the same as denying service, as long as there are still other competitors who are willing to work with the individual in question.

In conclusion, I do not believe in the existence of "cancel culture." I welcome further discussion and arguments that may change my mind.

Original, confusing message by me:

After book burning, we burned people. Do we cancel people into their graves next? Yes, hateful messages get humans to commit suicide. But I don't know if (politically right?) not canceled messages vs. a (leftist?) cancel culture cause more self-harm.

That said, I believe every business that holds a monopoly must serve anyone. Any other business may deal with whomever they want and reject on any grounds, unless these are explicitly forbidden. Ethnicity or gender may fit as non-reasons for denying service. Not liking a message and not wanting to share it is different, if there are still competitors that will offer to work with you.

TL;DR IMHO there is no such thing as cancel culture. Change my mind.

nhchris8• 3 years ago

Do we cancel people into their graves next?

Yes. And out of them, too:

A Confederate General's Remains Are Being Moved Out Of Memphis - https://www.npr.org/2021/06/19/1008371491/confederate-genera...

simple-thoughts• 3 years ago

Your comment is incoherent but it appears your argument is that right wing texts cause people to self harm, so self harm caused by leftist deplatforming is not wrong.

Perhaps you should take a moment to read the published article again. This is not the case of targeted harassment with the intent or even ability to cause self harm. It is a case of an academic, who’s job is to produce works that provide an accurate understanding of history so that better decisions can be made by leaders, having a book canceled due to political pressure from a privileged vocal elite. The facts of history do not conform to ideology, since history is an analysis of the past based on remnants left by it in the present.

The second part of your argument seems to be a neoliberal one that people should be free to do business with whomever they please. Of course the flaw with neoliberalism is it’s constant infiltration by political elements. As soon as a business decision is driven by political considerations rather than profit, the laws of neoliberal economics break down. Profit matters less than political salience, since political salience generates access to grant funding from state and non state actors.

nhchris8• 3 years ago

For some events, research is only allowed to conclude that they were as bad as we thought, or that they were even worse. Anything else is professional suicide.

Like a control circuit only able to correct the system in one direction, it will drift in that direction without limit. It turns history first to myth, then to fairy tale.

AllegedAlec• 3 years ago

slim• 3 years ago

  We tightly strapped an infant to a traditional plastic “circumstraint” using Velcro restraints. We also completely immobilized the infant’s head using standard surgical tape. The entire apparatus was then introduced into the MRI chamber. Since no metal objects could be used because of the high magnetic fields, the doctor who performed the surgery used a plastic bell with a sterilized obsidian bade to cut the foreskin. No anesthetic was used.

what is this ? I can't parse. Is it an april fool or something ?

rxhernandez3• 3 years ago

I think this is predicated on the ends justifying the means since the author seems to acknowledge that there are some deeply problematic things with colonialism while simultaneously acknowledging that they should have pride in the results.

What should be of no surprise to anyone, anywhere, is that people are deeply unmotivated to ever see the ends in a positive light if they were on the other end of that barrel full of evil means. Moreover, to say that someone should have pride in colonialism should translate to a tacit acknowledgement that colonialism was a great thing (if it's not great, why have pride in it at all?). And if it's a great thing why shouldn't we do it again?

I mean, does anyone genuinely think any value the Nazis produced would make up for the enormity of their evil? Should Germans have pride in Nazis because they helped pioneer rocketry?

nhchris8• 3 years ago

It has nothing to do with ends vs. means, and I have no idea where you got that from. It is about reaching truth.

To give a simple example, the question is "Did the Umayyad caliphate bring new irrigation techniques to Spain? What was the overall balance between harm and benefit they brought to Spain's population?", and not "Do the new irrigation techniques justify their colonization of Spain?"

Somehow, we are able to dispassionately examine the harms and benefits when it comes to Islamic-ruled Spain. So why should we look at Britain's empire any differently?

pjc502• 3 years ago

Rhodes was bad, though. https://libertywritersafrica.com/african-history/how-cecil-r...

(Interestingly that article starts with mention of the massacre of Namibians by Germans. I don't think anyone is being "cancelled" over that, possibly because everyone involved was "cancelled" a lot harder in the middle of the 20th century for some reason)

vkou3• 3 years ago

I will happily point out that pride in the former empire is exactly what's driving Russian aggression in the Ukraine at this moment.

drekipus2• 3 years ago

Was the USSR an "empire" in the imperial sense (genuine question) ?

I had thought the revolution was to destroy all that, remove the czar, bring in autocratic states, etc.

I feel like there is a distinction here but I can't easily point to it. But they were very anti-empire afaik

brazzy2• 3 years ago

An empire is not defined by its internal form of government, but by having a poweful core state that keeps other territories (provinces, colonies, client states) in permanent subservience.

qsort• 3 years ago

The usual definition of an empire is a state where a dominant group uses an imperial elite to extract resources from peripheral groups.

If you accept this definition, the USSR was an empire in the exact same sense the Romans or the British were, they just instantiated the template a little differently.

roundandround2• 3 years ago

I think the USSR was a colonialist empire in the post Napolean Republican sense.

The ideals of the exceptional Republic make it the perfect overseer of the implementation of its system upon inferior nations that lack the vision or commitment to find and implement the perfect ideals. My impression from how it is coverred in the US is that the UK's early colonialism was simple feudal empire (the Queen is pleased with your venture) and late colonialism was of the Republican empire sort (they need our assigned administration to at least become a poor model of us).

pjc502• 3 years ago

It wasn't colonialist, in that the USSR did not expand into overseas areas of nonwhite people, because by that time there weren't any left uncolonized, but it had all the other attributes of a Russian empire over the satellite republics. The liberatory aspects of it collapsed very early on in infighting. Then there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Uni...

exizt882• 3 years ago

There was a much more pragmatic fundamental reason for the regime to start the war: siloviki don’t tolerate democratic governments on their borders, as they might inspire the repressed population to demand the same democracy. Pride in the empire is an ideological crutch to explain the war rather than a reason for it.

Also it’s just “Ukraine”, not “the Ukraine”.

pbhjpbhj3• 3 years ago

Also it’s just “Ukraine”, not “the Ukraine”. //

In en-gb "the Ukraine" is the established form; without "the" it sounds strange. There's no academy that dictates acceptable form for English language. Do you think it's unclear? Is there a good reason to be a language fascist on this point?

jack_riminton• 3 years ago

Does everything have to be so black and white? The article clearly states "pride, as well as shame"

Everything to do with colonialism = bad is such a boneheaded simplification, thank god there are academics brave enough to look at it from a non-hysterical perspective

Also pride leading to invasion is a non sequitur, Germans can be proud of Autobahns without wanting to invade Poland again

nhchris8• 3 years ago

Everything to do with colonialism = bad

European colonialism. Take a look at Wikipedia's article on Muslim-colonized Spain, and it's almost nothing but praise. The entire opening section doesn't even mention the slavery of non-Muslims that was practiced.

Under the Caliphate of Córdoba, al-Andalus was a center of learning, and the city of Córdoba, the second largest in Europe, became one of the leading cultural and economic centers throughout the Mediterranean Basin, Europe, and the Islamic world. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus

justinclift• 3 years ago

Isn't it more one specific person's ego, wanting to leave their mark in history before they shuffle off?

vkou3• 3 years ago

Only if you ignore the spectacular resurgence of nationalism, revanchism, and 'make Russia great again' rhetoric that has completely embedded itself in the culture in the past twenty years.

Of course it was driven top-down, but I don't see how that has any bearing on anything. The US didn't invade Iraq because there was some kind of grassroots fear of it in particular, and the English didn't get an empire spanning half the world because some blokes down at the local thought it was a swell idea.

defrost3• 3 years ago

For those not reading the article, this is a tale of failed 'Cancellation' (if it can indeed be called as such).

The “Ethics and Empire” project continues and grows, and the book “Colonialism: A Moral Reckoning” was published despite the initial publisher exercising their option to withdraw and not publish.

Comments such as "research is only allowed to conclude .. " etc. are not supported here, just adages about twists and turns in the road that none of us anticipate.

nhchris8• 3 years ago

Comments such as "research is only allowed to conclude .. " etc. are not supported here

The ability of people to refuse to understand that which they don't want to never ceases to amaze me.

His colleagues abandoned him, and his institution disavowed his work. That on rare occasion academics are famous, foolish, and stubborn enough to get their work out despite such disincentives does not mean such threats are not effective for the vast majority.

They hear the message loud and clear: If you go against the zeitgeist, you better be ready to weather the storm that'll bring upon you.

defrost3• 3 years ago

If you go against the zeitgeist, you better be ready to weather the storm that'll bring upon you.

Sure, Leopold Kronecker shat on Cantor from a great height .. welcome to the entire history of acedemia.

In this case things came good a lot faster than they did for Cantor.

    Happily, I was able to repair it.

    Four fresh historians—including one dissenter from the Centre for Global History—stepped up, three of them, as it happens, wearing slightly darker-than-pink skins.

    And since 2019, the three annual conferences have attracted more than 40 historians from Oxbridge and elsewhere in Britain, and from California to the Netherlands.

    “Ethics and Empire” will complete its work in the summer of 2023.

    So, that story has a happy ending: The attempted cancellation failed, albeit not for want of concerted trying.

( oh, and the "cancelled" book was published on the second attempt with another publisher )

CiaranMcNulty• 3 years ago

It's sort of extraordinary that the conclusion of the piece is that the book was published and he was paid in full

Poor guy

matt_daemon• 3 years ago

Right... hard to take this guy's diatribe seriously.

rippercushions• 3 years ago

It was successfully cancelled at one publisher, he was just lucky/famous enough to find another. How many people don't get a second chance?

arrrg2• 3 years ago

Do you have a right to be published?

Free association is also an important liberal right.

defrost3• 3 years ago

How many people don't get a second chance?

The vast majority of people attempting to get published during the "Golden Age of Science Fiction" for starters.

Even reading the autobiographical writings of those that became big names you'll find a seemingly endless runway of rejection before liftoff, cancelled acceptances, demands for rewrites, multiple publisher approaches, etc.

One publisher getting cold feet isn't the end of the world, ask any writer that's made it.

aredox• 3 years ago

Well, if you look closer, almost none. Controversy sells, and you can become a guest speaker on the "help! In being cancelled!" tour.

drekipus2• 3 years ago

It's worth it, we need to put hurdles in front of people. Really make sure everything is at least threatened a tiny bit, even if they do make it out the other end unscathed.

Then we can know that their work is superior, probably due to their privilege.

Or maybe it would've been better to destroy his work completely? Then the world will be better off for it.

Am I doing it right?

amriksohata• 3 years ago

Recently Saurav dutt had his book cancelled on Amazon as he spoke about Islamism

nickreese• 3 years ago

Read the article and read the comments section.

For HN the current debate (28 comments) really reflects how charged this topic is.

Cancellation of ideas is a topic worth discussing. If we can't discuss it here, a much more rational place than other venues, where can this be meaningfully discussed?

in_the_fritz• 3 years ago

4chan.

prof-dr-ir• 3 years ago

It is interesting to compare this against a letter in the Guardian [1] by one of the chief critics of the project. They are both so keen to insist on rationality!

A quote from the original post: "They [his critics] could engage rationally, even if forcefully."

A quote from [1]: "That debate [on empire] should be equitable, rational and based on all the available evidence."

So I think the debate might be a bit more nuanced than can be gleaned from blog posts and columns? I guess I would be wary of taking a side here without significantly more background reading.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/03/histor...

Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

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