The Demise of the Public Library

http://latitude.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/the-demise-of-the-public-library/

by llambda • 15 years ago

59 58 15 years ago

latitude.blogs.nytimes.com

spodek• 15 years ago

Libraries create community and culture. I can't tell you how much value I get out of having a library across the street from me. I must go there at least weekly. I read books and see movies I wouldn't have otherwise. I meet neighbors there. Families bring children there. Libraries stock books and movies stores don't.

Having fewer libraries, even if bigger, doesn't match the value of a neighborhood library.

wisty• 15 years ago

And it's not like smaller libraries can't get books in, if you need them. These days, you can probably fill in a list of ISBNs on a website, and pick them up in a couple of days, as they can ship rarer books in from larger libraries.

The only point in having libraries, not warehouses, is that people can visit them.

gavinlynch4• 15 years ago

If you did not have a family, would you still find value in the library? Not trying to put words in your mouth, but it seems it's biggest value is for parents with children.

king_jester4• 15 years ago

In my experience, I find huge value in my local library, and I have no children. For myself, when unemployed the library provided a fantastic public space for me to get away from the home and do some serious programming work and job hunting. I know a few people who work on their side project ideas at the library (they bring their own laptops for this) and I know several people who use the library as their only source of internet access.

Keep in mind the value for a particular local library may not fall along your particular interests. Libraries serve the community as a whole, and there are many diverse needs for a typical community that a library has to serve.

pradocchia• 15 years ago

families are the future of society.

antidaily• 15 years ago

or The Demise of Physical Media

tjr3• 15 years ago

With VHS tapes, and DVDs, we watched programs and movies on television screens. Take away the physical media and replace it with files on a computer, and we're still watching programs and movies on television screens.

With vinyl records, and cassettes, and compact discs, we listened to music on speaker systems and on headphones. Take away the physical media and replace it with files on a computer, and we're still listening to music on speaker systems and on headphones.

But books? We never consumed books through something analogous to television sets or speakers. We held the actual book in our hands, and read the printed pages with our eyes. Replacing physical books with digital books is, in my opinion, a significantly bigger switch than moving from compact discs to MP3s or from DVDs to MP4s. The entire experience has changed, not just how the content is stored.

simcop2387• 15 years ago

Along with that we've gone from needing gigantic buildings to house them to being able to carry them around with you in your pocket. That's also a gigantic change in the experience. It's turned a personal library/study into something for the rich into something that is affordable by at least half the population in the western world if not more.

Hyena• 15 years ago

The article is actually about Brent council and the use of digital media as an excuse to remove libraries from poor communities--where they are popular as free Internet cafes and provide books for people who couldn't afford readers--and dubious plans to reinvest the money. The story comes complete with suggestions of corruption and further deprivation of an already impoverished community.

grogs• 15 years ago

Quite possibly. Libraries/Amazon need to get up to speed on this. I have a Kindle, as does my brother, my mum, and my nan.

My mum is a member of a library, and they have ebook which she can download and read on her laptop. However, she can't read it on the Kindle, as they are distributed as DRM protected ePub's.

To put it on her Kindle she would have to remove the DRM and convert to mobi... But she doesn't need, or even want, the DRM removed.

Also, second-hand books. I could very easily get hold of a Dan Drown's The Lost Symbol for £0.50 in a charity shop/second hand book store. But it costs £4.96 to get the Kindle edition. There's also no way to trade/sell/give Kindle books to other people.

Removing DRM but then deleting within loan period- or pirating and donating £0.50 to charity - for ebooks seems morally equivalent to me. But it's illegal/break of copyright.

01Michael10• 15 years ago

There is nothing stopping libraries from offering Kindle versions of eBooks. I work for the Buffalo & Erie County Public Library System in the IT dept. and we do offer Kindle books. The problem, like every thing else, is that it costs money. The more proprietary eBook formats you have the higher the cost there is to stock another format for a particular book. Implementing Kindle support was also way more problematic then offering ePubs and audio books so not every library system will have the ability (or money) to do so...

Personally, I think it's not really the demise of the Public Library but more the demise of our society due to the lack of proper priorities.

smountcastle3• 15 years ago

This is truly sad. When I visit my local library all of the public user computers are continuously utilized and there is a waiting list -- I assume these folks either don't own their own computer or need to be able to use a public one. I appreciate the quiet place to work and free WiFi.

Not everyone has e-readers or can afford to purchase a large number of books--our library definitely fills a need in the local community. Plus knowledgable staff can recommend good books and assist students with their research (the inter-library loan system which includes local Universities is especially helpful in this case).

While I can drive to the library, I do see a large number of folks arriving via foot and/or public transportation. I cannot imagine the impact to those communities which are losing their local libraries. Perhaps Brent is particularly affluent, but I suspect that the council is being misguided by their consultants or simply doesn't care about those members of the community who will be impacted most by these library closures.

atacrawl• 15 years ago

I consider the public library to be the secular society's equivalent of a church -- a place where the entire community can freely meet and exchange ideas, where mind and spirit can be enlightened through knowledge. I fear as libraries go, so goes secularism itself.

gavinlynch4• 15 years ago

I struggle to see the correlation.

gavinlynch4• 15 years ago

I'd be happy to have a discussion about a possible relationship between libraries and a dissolution of secular thinking in America--I'm just saying an emotional and hyperbolic lamentation of the death of a library is not that discussion.

Not sure why that's a down vote. I just don't see the correlation.

kiba• 15 years ago

I thought it was called the coffee shop.

gavinlynch4• 15 years ago

or the Internets?

pjscott• 15 years ago

I've always thought of them as a place where you go to get books. Those other things are nice, but secondary.

tomjen3• 15 years ago

Well that is to be expected. Ebooks are so much cheaper to distribute that it makes no sense to have all these physical books around.

valgaze2• 15 years ago

I'm very comfortable with the end of libraries as we know them today, but I think the facilities should be repurposed into "study lounges" and meeting space for civics groups. With a few exceptns, you don't really need a library for books anymore. Why not have the young professionals studying for grad school entrance exams or high school kids studying in Starbucks to do that in a community-center type space. For folks without computers/Internet access, keep or expand the computers that are already in there.

I remember the Nook had a very weird feature where if you were inside the store you could free-read any book you wanted electronically, maybe a repurposed library could have the same licensing arrangement with content from the likes of Google books.

valgaze2• 15 years ago

BTW, UCSD students recenetly "broke in" to an auxiliary library shuttered due to budget cuts: http://www.publiclibraries.com/blog/college-students-force-u...

A quiet place to study and think is crucially important

briandon3• 15 years ago

Public libraries (in the traditional, physical-book-filled sense) are probably a doomed institution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_library_usage

Maybe they can hold on as free Internet cafes, since that seems to be how many people actually use them today. All that would be missing would be the availability of free or subsidized tea, drip coffee, and maybe some sort of nutritious but inexpensive to prepare hot soup.

gnat• 15 years ago

That Wikipedia article blurs research libraries (like you'd find in a university) with public libraries. Almost all the hard numbers they quote are about research libraries, but the libraries that most of us care about (the ones that act as a democratic backstop for access to information) are public libraries.

The real thing to watch is the countercyclical nature of public libraries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_library_usage#Econom... in that article). As the economy worsens, public library use increases. Not just for reading material, but for the public services the libraries provide: free law clinics, resume-writing help, etc.

I'm not sure what your local public library is like, but in our small town library is busy all the time. People are borrowing paper books, using the Internet-connected computers, and getting help from librarians. Doomed? Only if we let them; only if we think it's okay to reinstate barriers around lifelong learning.

briandon3• 15 years ago

When I've ventured to my local public libraries, except for the children's section, the stacks have been pretty dusty.

I haven't borrowed a book from a library myself in at least 5 years. I purchase a lot of books (paper books) -- mostly from Amazon but occasionally from brick and mortar bookstores -- but like to make notes and write questions in the margins or on Post-its and tend to keep them for later reference.

briandon3• 15 years ago

Also, public libraries aren't necessarily the best venues for Internet usage, free law clinics, resume-writing/job assistance, etc.

A community center that also has a library component, maybe.

rmason2• 15 years ago

How many of you who support libraries actually give to them? After a friend challenged me to match his efforts I started giving books to our local library every year. My sister and I virtually came of age in that library and I'd forgotten how vital it is for a childs development.

But libraries do need to evolve. They need to have digital offerings. I'd like to see them set aside room for hacker spaces as well as user group meeting rooms.

The more community engagement for the libraries services the harder it will be for politicians to cut their budgets.

smountcastle3• 15 years ago

How many of your book donations show up in the stacks, available for check out? I've stopped donating books to my local library because they would just turn around and sell all of them at the next book fair. I was even buying new books which I'd appreciate being able to check out and donating them -- perhaps my tastes are out of sync from the rest of the patrons, but as a kid I appreciated that my local library had technical books that I was able to learn programming from.

rmason2• 15 years ago

I haven't had that problem. The majority of books I've given though have to do with local and state history. But I've given some ham radio books and they're still available.

Symmetry• 15 years ago

Even if they sell off a lot of books they can still be helping out the library. Its a sad fact that books, especially paperbacks, wear out if you let them circulate. Whenever we get donations we always compare them to what we currently have on the shelves, and keep whichever is in the best condition.

cafard• 15 years ago

The District of Columbia used to accept books for resale, not to put on the shelves. The acceptance ended with 2011, when the library's store at the MLK library downtown closed.

JumpCrisscross2• 15 years ago

The article starts out with a potentially sound assertion on considering whether patrons of libraries walk or travel to them (though I cringe at anecdotal evidence being used to assault a study).

It then argues that libraries serve their purpose as public e-cafes

JumpCrisscross2• 15 years ago

The article argues that libraries serve their purpose as public e-cafes. Given that this is not the original intent of libraries, it would call for re-considering how they have been transformed by modern technology, i.e. the very thing the author mocks the council for having considered.

I would argue for a cloud model to libraries - as centralised a super-library as possible to house the electronic literature and then a series of "thin" libraries that have terminals to access that media.

This article offers personal anecdotes against a corpus of literature on falling library user bases, etc. A NYT author can do better than inducing the state of British libraries from a personal example.

waqf• 15 years ago

Meanwhile, the person quoted in the article argues that everyone has computers and e-readers now.

Right, so close the libraries and make sure e-books are free for everyone like library books used to be.

smountcastle3• 15 years ago

Our library system (Fairfax Co., VA) allows checking out e-books through a system called OverDrive: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/library/dbsremote/resource/eboo...

I've only tried it once to test it out and it appeared to work fine (I don't have a Kindle, I suspect I would use it more if I did).

king_jester4• 15 years ago

> I would argue for a cloud model to libraries - as centralised a super-library as possible to house the electronic literature and then a series of "thin" libraries that have terminals to access that media.

Some libraries already work this way, with a central organization paying for access to many research databases that can be accessed by patrons. Physical collections also work this way in some places, where shelving for physical items has been reduced in individual branches but made up for by a system where a book can be requested and delivered to your local branch at no charge.

The main issue here is that there is a ton of knowledge that isn't digital and not everyone has the capability to access digital materials or to "take" digital materials home for a time.

toomuchtodo• 15 years ago

The Library of Congress should step into the "super library" role as authoritative archive, with the Internet Archive serving as DR/backup; buy the content once, and heavily subsidize Kindle-esqe devices ($79 currently from Amazon, buying tens of millions at a time should be able to drive the price below $30/piece) to distribute.

Turn libraries across the country (world?) into collaborative meeting/working/co-working space.

tommorris6• 15 years ago

And we're all missing the point again. Libraries are about books. I go to libraries to borrow books, to read books and generally get access to books other than Dan Brown and Harry Potter. That stuff is more than adequately supplied by the market: if I want mass-market paperbacks, I can get them used on Amazon for a penny plus shipping, much less than the cost of a bus ticket/train ticket/driving to the library. But more obscure stuff, out-of-print stuff, that's the value of libraries. And giving free (well, subsidised/low-cost) access to everyone who wants that is the value of libraries.

I've got a Kindle. I use it as a place for storing personal documents, pretty much exclusively. Almost everything I read is not an e-book in any format. Almost everything on my bookshelves is not available as an e-book in any format.

The long tail of books are not e-books and probably won't be for a long time. The point of libraries is exactly to ensure there isn't an information divide in society. Science, philosophy, literature, history, languages: these shouldn't be the preserve of people who can afford to buy the books or attend college or jump through the hoops needed to access research libraries.

And it's all very well telling people to go use the Internet. What are they gonna do, look it up on Wikipedia? Fine, and where are the people who write Wikipedia going to get access to the books to write the Wikipedia articles? And what happens when they get to the end of the Wikipedia article and want to read more? It's the same with adult education: the government tell us that we need to become "lifelong learners" to survive in the current economy. How exactly are we to do that when adult education courses are closing and libraries are closing?

A working programmer friend of mine wanted to do A-level in mathematics. He could only find one place in London that offers an adults course. To get into universities, students are more and more expected to have read outside their curriculum. Getting rid of libraries makes it so only the rich kids can get access to the books. And the only answer we can give them: go buy a Kindle.

If education is the road to a better life, we sure as hell need to make sure the road is kept in good repair.

mrj• 15 years ago

In many towns libraries serve as a default community center. I get daily emails with all of the events happening in my small town and I would say at least half of those are at the local library.

What you're saying is true, of course. But that over looks a great deal of value that libraries provide -- it's more than just bound paper on shelves.

tommorris6• 15 years ago

Sure, that's definitely what the government bureaucrats call "value-add". But the problem is that sometimes the value-add seems to be the only thing they focus on.

Decisions about library policy are done on the basis of the community stuff, how it'll affect parents with kids who use the library for story time, and the views of readers get neglected.

I went to my local library today, and they've removed yet more non-fiction shelving to move the registrar of births, marriages and deaths into the library. The library seems willing to accomodate just about anything... except books, which seem to be the primary function. The library in the next town over has a monthly "meet animals" day, where someone brings in a ferret or a snake or something and kids get to see and pet an animal. Which is fine, and I haven't got a problem with that. The fact that every time I go in there, they have less books makes me all the less likely to want to scream and shout when the barbarians in pinstripes come to tear the place down and "streamline operations" and so on.

Because of all the feel-good community stuff libraries have to do in order to remain "relevant", the actual point of the library gets slowly undermined and weakened. I don't blame the libraries: they are only doing what they need to do to survive. I blame the politicians and the public for undervaluing libraries.

tjr3• 15 years ago

I agree, in principle, but I think one of the issues is that it is increasingly common for library patrons to ignore the books and head for the computers. I don't have hard statistics on this, but if it's true, then I imagine it's hard for libraries (and the governments that support them) to justify pouring more resources into keeping the book collections robust, if too few of the people they are serving don't care about the books.

And even on the digital front, I fear that people are reading more blogs and tweets and fewer books. Even Kindles won't matter to people whose reading attention span is limited to a couple sentences at a time... :-(

(This, though, is a bit of speculation and anecdotal conjecture on my part. I would be interested in hearing if others have observed the same or not.)

tommorris6• 15 years ago

Sure, but it's an is-ought thing. More people may be using computers in a library than using books. More people prefer McDonald's to healthy eating doesn't mean health policy needs to follow preferences. The point of an institution is it is supposed to stand for something.

A library exists because of the belief that literacy, knowledge, research, ideas and creativity are good things. That some people don't see them as good things doesn't mean they are right.

keithpeter2• 15 years ago

"A working programmer friend of mine wanted to do A-level in mathematics. He could only find one place in London that offers an adults course."

I work in Adult Education in the UK, and I also teach in a local Further Education College. You won't find an AS/A2 level course in Maths or any of the Sciences easily now. Its because of 'data driven management', which brings this post back on topic for this forum...

The short version: AS/A2 Maths and Science subjects are specialised and difficult. Evening class students have work and family commitments. They start a course with great enthusiasm, then, usually just after the New Year, reality kicks in with the cold weather and the difficulty of finding time to study. People drop out of the course. Those who have the time and self-organisation to make it to the exams usually pass, although grades are not astounding.

Data: when you attend a course in a Skills Funding Agency funded programme, your attendance is monitored and used to compile something called an ISR. Your attendance and the outcome of your exams are on the database.

Success: The percentage of the students who started left at the end is called 'retention'. The percentage of students who took the exam who pass is called 'achievement'. Success = retention * achievement.

"Raising Standards": Success rates are compared with national benchmarks. Courses with pass rates that are more than 5% below benchmark are 'poor quality'. Single course percentages are aggregated (in wonderful ways) to give success figures for departments. Departments have success targets. Easiest way to improve your success? Dump the low performing courses. They happen to be the harder subjects.

There is a small industry in specialised data mining and tracking software that will process the database and 'pull out' the success statistics. Most of the applications look like they are written in VB or something similar, but some have Web interfaces. Middle managers in colleges in the UK spend an awful lot of time going through the database reports.

So now you know! Next time a politician speaks about 'raising standards in education' be aware that the only way you get fast change in the pass rates is by simply removing the lower scores by closing the courses.

noonespecial• 15 years ago

Libraries are one of those things that, even if you don't personally use them, your life will get a little bit worse if they disappear because of how their loss will effect your community. Probably enough so to justify supporting them with your taxes even if you never set foot in one.

paulhauggis• 15 years ago

I'm posting this from a library. I use my local library for my office. Most have free Internet and more recently, free DVD rental.

jdietrich• 15 years ago

My local libraries function primarily as daycentres for the homeless and free internet cafes for students and immigrants. Arguably a valuable social service, but a library in name only. My nearest library loans more DVDs than books.

I'd be prepared to fight for the idea of libraries, but the reality? Not so much. Cut the funding, close them all, spend the rest of the money on FE colleges (community colleges).

keithpeter2• 15 years ago

"I'd be prepared to fight for the idea of libraries, but the reality? Not so much. Cut the funding, close them all, spend the rest of the money on FE colleges (community colleges)."

Make sure that money is ring fenced carefully. See my post above in this thread.

The Demise of the Public Library

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