Low nutritional quality in vegetarian meat

https://www.chalmers.se/en/departments/bio/news/Pages/Low-nutritional-quality-in-vegetarian-meat-.aspx

by achenet • 4 years ago

72 97 4 years ago

epups• 4 years ago

One thing I noticed is that you have to watch out for the protein content in vegetarian "meat", it is sometimes quite low. It varies a lot depending on which type though.

doix2• 4 years ago

I think the amino acid profile is more important, because it's not really stated anywhere. You don't need to really worry about it with meat, but with non meat sources, you (allegedly?) need to start thinking about it.

I am a degenerate that consumes a lot of Huel, and they claim to think about it but who knows if our understanding is good enough to properly model this stuff.

windexh8er3• 4 years ago

High protein is not a diet requirement and studies have shown detriment to too much protein consumption. The protein craze is a marketing gimmick, yet most westerners are drawn in by products that advertise it and seem to be concerned about it even when they live a lifestyle that doesn't require increased protein consumption [0].

[0] https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speak...

doix2• 4 years ago

People who exercise regularly also have higher needs, about 1.1–1.5 grams per kilogram. People who regularly lift weights, or are training for a running or cycling event need 1.2–1.7 grams per kilogram

That's a quote from your article, which matches what gym bros tell you that you need. It's actually pretty hard to get that much even if you eat meat whilst trying to eat only 2-3k calories.

edgyquant• 4 years ago

The protein craze is not a marketing gimmick and your own article disproves what you say here

someNameIG2• 4 years ago

Plant based sources of protein have all the essential amino acids, just in different ratios to meat, and maybe a little less bioavailable. Though I've never seen any literature indicating that this has any negative effect on the average person. Maybe in athletes but they will generally have a more controlled diet anyway, supplementing protein with things like shakes.

ausbah• 4 years ago

title is a little clickbaity. study only seems to talk about zinc and iron which i think while important is more telling than the vagueness of "low nutritional quality"

rcme7• 4 years ago

Is it possible to have a diet with high nutritional quality without bio-available iron and zinc?

Retric10• 4 years ago

That’s a misleading question.

Is Meat nutritious even though it lacks vitamin C?

How nutritious food is really depends on context. Potatoes cover a larger percentage of our nutritious needs than Bananas. Bananas however cover a few things lacking in normal western diets so we think of them as nutritious.

steve_adams_862• 4 years ago

I do regular blood work and I only eat plants, and I only supplement D3 and B12. My iron and zinc levels are great.

I suppose the answer would be no, we would get sick and die without those. But it seems like you’re implying that we can’t get them without meat. If that’s correct, I’d say that’s a false assumption — I am doing great, and the rest of my family is as well.

Although some nutrients appear less bioavailable in plants when tested in labs, evidently this is not true in situ. My gut feeling (ha) is that bioavailability (even with foods we consider highly available) depends quite a lot on healthy gut flora. There is some great and some more tenuous evidence of this depending on the food and nutrient in question, and I suspect it’s why some people don’t thrive on plants.

Nursie• 4 years ago

So you need heme to have bioavailable iron… there is plant-based heme in some of the ‘meats’ these days. Seems like it might be good to increase use of that.

User238• 4 years ago

I really don’t understand eating vegetarian, presumably for well-being, and then making fake “meat” food science experiments a major part of your diet.

I have nothing against people choosing to eat vegetarian either. I’m not vegetarian, but I abstain from meat from time to time so sometimes I eat vegetarian. And when I do I’d much rather have something like delicious traditionally vegetarian Indian food than the output of some novel process chemistry reactor.

throwawaylinux2• 4 years ago

I really don’t understand eating vegetarian, presumably for well-being, and then making fake “meat” food science experiments a major part of your diet.

Okay, thanks for the data point. Have you done anything to try to understand it? Talked to people who do this and ask them about it, for example?

User238• 4 years ago

Yes. That’s why I posted my bafflement on a website dedicated to curiosity in a discussion thread on the topic. Have you got any ideas on the subject?

robga• 4 years ago

I’ve been veg’an for decades. I really enjoy “meat” substitutes for their texture and flavour absorption ability. For me it is no way an effort or experience of meat substitution. In short, meat eaters don’t have some copyright over “meatiness” and it is perfectly fine for non meat eaters to enjoy or seek out a gamut of food textures.

Typically, I eat the traditional foods of tofu, tempeh, and seitan/gluten and they are a “major part of my diet”.

Over the past decade, “food science experiments” have given us mycoprotein products (Quorn), textured vegetable proteins (TVPs) made from pea etc, and more recent eattempts like Beyond. Frankly, I prefer the “traditional” forms but the new types are improving and I eat them for some variety. My only “beef” is that they tend to push traditional veg’an proteins out of precious supermarket space.

I make sure I understand the protein, sugar, carbs, aminos, vitamins (especially B) I eat, as should everyone, and am perfectly healthy.

carstenhag• 4 years ago

Because many vegans (including me) like meat taste, but don't want to cause unnecessary suffering and/or kill animals.

ihatepython2• 4 years ago

Are there many vegans who do want to cause unnecessary suffering and/or kill?

The guy who killed those 4 students in Moscow ID is a vegan. Was wondering if there was any correlation.

orev• 4 years ago

Raising animals takes a huge amount of resources, so in order to sustain the number of people we have in the planet, we need to find other ways to make food that don’t require so many resources. People clearly like to eat meat, so if we can replace a lot of it with something plant based that also satisfies those needs, then why not do it?

Most people will hardly notice the difference now if ground beef in meat sauces, taco meat, etc was replaced, or even only half of it, with plant based meat.

User238• 4 years ago

Raising animals takes a huge amount of resources, so in order to sustain the number of people we have in the planet, we need to find other ways to make food that don’t require so many resources.

Is that really true? Livestock farming can be entirely sustainable using renewable inputs. The per unit resource usage might be high by some simplistic arbitrary metrics, but when those resources are basically sunlight and its natural products, what’s the problem? In any event we’re nowhere near the planet’s renewable carrying capacity.

I’m against foolish, cruel, and unsustainable “factory farming” practices, but the existence of a bad method of doing something doesn’t mean there aren’t good ones.

People clearly like to eat meat, so if we can replace a lot of it with something plant based that also satisfies those needs, then why not do it?

People clearly like to drink sugar water too. So we replaced sugar with food science experiments like aspartame and sucralose that can’t be metabolized. But now we’re learning they’re endocrine disrupters with significant side effects.

988747• 4 years ago

That's a myth. We can easily produce food for 20-30 billions of people using our current farming methods (and that includes meat production). The reason people are starving in Africa is because they do not have enough money to buy food (for various political reasons), not our inability to produce enough of it.

nxpnsv• 4 years ago

Now why would anyone choose to eat something? What reason could there possibly be? Oh, maybe to some it tastes good? Not really en enigma... But why do so many meat eaters really worry about this? And why do you presume well being? Could it not be one of say some combination of taste, climate, economy, well being, ethics, religion?

spicymaki2• 4 years ago

I really don’t understand eating vegetarian, presumably for well-being, and then making fake “meat” food science experiments a major part of your diet.

People eat vegetarian diets for many different reasons. Sometimes religious, cultural, health, environmental, and sometimes as a protest to animal suffering. I think a majority of Americans consume processed foods on a daily basis. If you are eating deli meats, hot dogs, burgers, etc. the food is pretty processed. A chicken, pork, and beef filler hot dog is not natural by any means. The way animals are raised before slaughter is not natural and the feed they are given are not what animals consume in nature. Everything you eat is really a food science experiment.

User238• 4 years ago

I strongly agree that more of my diet than I'd like is a food science experiment. That doesn't mean I want to add more food science experiments. Otherwise, I do what I can to get both meats and fruits and vegetables, including processed meats like sausages, from sources that are personally known to me and that use traditional natural methods and ingredients. I'd say over half of the meat I eat is from animals that I personally saw when they were alive and I know they were both raised and slaughtered humanely. I'd like to get that number considerably closer to 100%. It's a lot harder to do with vegetables since I've not yet gotten good at preservation besides freezing, and there's only so much space, so in the off season I'm mostly stuck with supermarket produce.

troyvit• 4 years ago

This is just a weird data point but my kids are vegan (long story). My youngest has no idea what meat tastes like but she loves the taste of vegan sausages and chick'n nuggets. She doesn't care if it tastes like actual chicken or actual pork sausage, she just knows she likes the taste.

And yeah I couldn't get her to eat chickpea masala to save her life.

armoredkitten• 4 years ago

Sometimes you just need a burger-like product to take to the company BBQ so that Todd from accounting will shut the fuck up for once about how vegetarian food is all "rabbit food".

Sometimes you want to make one of the many dishes you grew up with, but you want to live consistently with your ethics, so you want a simple replacement.

Sometimes you want something that freezes easily so that when you've had a long and stressful day you have something quick and easy to reach for.

Most meat-eaters don't make hamburgers a "major part of their diet" -- and most vegetarians/vegans don't make veggie burgers a "major part" of theirs either. But as an occasional thing, it's very useful to have these meat substitutes, for a variety of reasons. You don't have to eat them for every meal in order to find them useful.

User238• 4 years ago

Sometimes you just need a burger-like product to take to the company BBQ so that Todd from accounting will shut the fuck up for once about how vegetarian food is all "rabbit food".

I've always preferred "thats not food, that's what food eats." I don't see how fake meat is going to solve a gap in senses of humor though.

Sometimes you want to make one of the many dishes you grew up with, but you want to live consistently with your ethics, so you want a simple replacement.

I would be quite interested in hearing a consistent and rigorous herbivore ethical system. All of the herbivores I've personally encountered mistake their emotional revulsion for an ethos. But, in all charity, I can at least imagine the existence of a consistent ethos one might hold with respect abstention. In fact, there's one that's part of my faith tradition, but it's considered an exceptional penance and not a moral obligation. Somehow I don't think that's your motivation though. If it is a penitential act though, then you have my sincere admiration. That said, eating highly processed food science experiments that we have no actual data on the long term effects of consumption of is inconsistent with my ethics. Naturally, that is orthogonal to eating a complete diet that's as consistent as possible given practical constraints with what H. Sapiens evolved to eat. Incidentally that's the basis of my ethos with regard to food: I want to eat what my body is best able to use.

Sometimes you want something that freezes easily so that when you've had a long and stressful day you have something quick and easy to reach for.

I don't understand this, I've never had trouble freezing the vegetarian dishes that I've made.

Most meat-eaters don't make hamburgers a "major part of their diet" -- and most vegetarians/vegans don't make veggie burgers a "major part" of theirs either. But as an occasional thing, it's very useful to have these meat substitutes, for a variety of reasons. You don't have to eat them for every meal in order to find them useful.

I certainly agree that even eating supermarket meats it's hard to eat a complete diet. Organ meat is basically impossible to find in your average supermarket, but it's of vital importance for getting nutritionally available dietary micronutrients. I'm sure that you know, as an educated herbivore, that it's considerably more difficult to get bioavailable micronutrients from plants due to our digestive system not being evolved to process phytates. Fortunately thanks to human ingenuity there are some workarounds, like fermentation and other forms of processing that neutralize the natural defensive poisons that plants produce. Because, believe it or not, just like animals plants also prefer not to be eaten!

kashunstva2• 4 years ago

then making fake “meat” food science experiments a major part of your diet.

Vegetarian meat-like alternatives exist but their existence doesn’t mean that some large number of vegetarians subsist in large part on them any more than meat eaters subsist primarily on hamburgers. This seems like an argument against some straw man vegetarian that doesn’t often exist. I’ve been vegan for 25 years and consume commercially prepared meat alternatives maybe twice a month at most. Most vegans I know have similar dietary habits.

comex• 4 years ago

On a related note, I’ve noticed that vegetarian jerky and other vegetarian meat-product substitutes have a slightly lower protein-to-calorie ratio than the originals. Not a big difference, but consistent.

colordrops2• 4 years ago

No one should be eating these as their main source of nutrients or protein for that matter. A proper plant based diet consists of less processed whole grains, legumes, and leafy vegetables.

spicymaki2• 4 years ago

Vegetarians should not be getting the majority their nutrients from vegetarian meat. These products are not even designed with that goal in mind. Vegetarians should have a varied plant based diet and supplement if necessary.

paulcole• 4 years ago

A diet largely made up of plant-based foods such as root vegetables, pulses, fruit and vegetables generally has a low climate impact and is also associated with health benefits such as a reduced risk of age-related diabetes and cardiovascular disease, as has been shown in several large studies.

Sounds awful.

Personally this is a risk I’m willing to take.

UglyToad3• 4 years ago

Repeat after me, no one eats a burger believing it's a health food.

Now write it a hundred times and maybe we can stop this circular discussion.

reedjosh7• 4 years ago

I think a Burger is healthy if the ingredients are of sufficient quality.

The buns and perhaps sugary sauces are the least healthy bits.

UglyToad3• 4 years ago

Agreex, if the burger patty is just prime ground beef or black beans and quinoa or something it's probably ok. But people like to eat food that is nice sometimes and so it's everything else, the mayo, the ketchup, the toppings, the bun, the fries, that are part of the mise en place of the burger experience and the same goes for other vegetarian meat substitutes, e.g. sausages or bacon.

alphazard2• 4 years ago

The beef itself is arguably one of the healthiest foods available. The burger ensemble with the fries and buns isn't great. The whole point of vegetarian burgers is so people following those diets can fit into social settings where others are eating burgers. Most vegetarians are such for ethical reasons, knowing it's harder to get adequate nutrition, and planning accordingly. Hopefully they aren't eating vegeburgers and expecting it to have the same nutrient profile as a real burger.

vjerancrnjak• 4 years ago

One ingredient is neither healthy or unhealthy. It's only diet/lifestyle that is healthy. A healthy diet can include a variety of ingredients.

Associating a particular food with health or illness is an incorrect thing to do, at least I think so.

koolba• 4 years ago

Most vegetarians are such for ethical reasons, knowing it's harder to get adequate nutrition, and planning accordingly.

Getting adequate nutrition as a vegetarian isn’t difficult at all. Pick a random grain, a random legume, and a random vegetable, maybe throw in a salad, and you’ll average out to everything you need nutritionally.

It’s only a problem when you try to transform vegetables into non-vegetables. There’s nothing natural about eating massive amounts of a single part of any fruit or vegetable.

The same logic applies to explain why most juice is bad for you. It’s simply not evolutionarily sound to consume just the liquid portion of an entire bag of oranges or apples.

It applies to meat as well. A diet of only pork rinds isn’t going to work too well.

moeris• 4 years ago

knowing is harder to get adequate nutrition

It's really not, though. Not any harder than in a meat eating diet. Maybe if you're following a vegan diet. Or if you have specific health concerns (like low iron absorption). But then, you should probably have to be careful if you're eating meat, as well.

watwut• 4 years ago

The whole point of vegetarian burgers is so people following those diets can fit into social settings where others are eating burgers.

I do not think so. I eat meat, but does not go for burgers in general. I have yet to encounter social situation in which me not eating burger would in any way be an issue. It just does not happen, never. Being vegetarian poses social issues I think, but you never need a burger specifically.

It is more that people including vegetarians (excluding me I guess) like burger form and like the bun taste.

scoofy• 4 years ago

The beef itself is arguably one of the healthiest foods available.

What are you talking about? Are you just going to say this without any citation whatsoever? What do you mean by 'healthy'?

tedunangst2• 4 years ago

You don't think it's possible somebody who's been advised to eat more iron might be drawn to "high in iron" veggie patties at the supermarket?

lozenge• 4 years ago

That's an issue of labelling regulation which applies to every product. And, I've never seen such a label.

UglyToad3• 4 years ago

Are the patties high in iron and are they making that claim? I don't know.

Orange juice is also high in vitamin C and makes that claim so low information consumers think it's ok to have their children drink litres of the stuff since it's "healthier than soda". The problem you're highlighting has far more to do with the negative aspects of a capitalist food system (marketing and branding) and is far broader than whether these particular patties that are primarily selected on the basis their contents didn't die in terror surrounded by the stench of death with a boltgun through the skull have insufficient zinc or whatever.

Like sure proper labelling and branding is important, for all foods, but I'm reacting to the perceived broader campaign on behalf of the meat industry to single out meat replacements on the basis of them not being, I don't know, as healthy as a prime cut of wagyu beef prepared in the healthiest oil with a side salad of greens (no dressing).

steponlego2• 4 years ago

Shit take, a burger is perfectly healthy.

bastawhiz2• 4 years ago

A loaf of bread covered in butter is "perfectly healthy" if it satisfies your macronutrient requirements without going well beyond what your body is going to use. But that doesn't fit in with the average person's diet. Eating a 1200 calorie burger (that's high in fat) if your body burns 2000 calories a day likely isn't a healthy choice for most folks who aren't tracking what they eat, especially if they do it regularly.

Khelavaster• 4 years ago

Iron is not a proxy for nutritional quality....

Amino acid and fatty acid compositions should be directly compared between meat/eggs raised with access to a complex outdoor supplemental food biome vs outdoor-raised industrially fed meat/eggs vs indoor raised (and also grass fed vs grainfed vs grain finished beef/dairy)

theptip• 4 years ago

I can’t see any obvious cynical conflicts of interest here in the funding sources, but I don’t know the Bertebos Foundation.

While I’m aware of some meat industry campaigns to dissuade people from eating vegetarian alternatives, this study seems plausibly good-faith.

The object level claim is “some of these products contain phytates” (aka anti-nutrients). Not my field but the first few search results suggest this is not considered to be a big issue? Eg https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/anti-nutrients/

Anyway, if there are steps these products can take to improve their nutritional profile, I’m sure they will work towards them. My model here is that it’s a recent capability gain to make meat-like products that are pretty close to the real thing in taste and texture, and further improvements to nutrition will follow inevitably.

steponlego2• 4 years ago

The garden burger was fine. The new wave of vegetarian meats was always meant to be a low cost substitute for the real deal, for the growing class of plebs. That’s why they stuck it next to the real meat section.

Low nutritional quality in vegetarian meat

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