McCain and Obama Unite on H1B Issue

http://blog.bincsearch.com/?p=440

by bincsearch • 18 years ago

26 34 18 years ago

blog.bincsearch.com

fallentimes3• 18 years ago

Finally, some fucking compromising/agreeing.

If only they could "unite" to cut waste, reduce spending, protect privacy and lower taxes. Baby steps I suppose.

kirubakaran2• 18 years ago

Don't expect them to unite on protecting privacy any time soon. They are robbing our privacy "for our own good", remember?

markessien3• 18 years ago

You know, just go look at the info on facebook to see how much the average person cares about privacy.

qqq3• 18 years ago

Democrats don't want to do half of those things.

fallentimes3• 18 years ago

Based on spending - neither party does/has. Cutting taxes is retarded if you don't cut spending along with it.

colinplamondon2• 18 years ago

Yeah, we want to help lift people out of poverty, improve education, balance the budget, and pay down the national debt- monstrous! Monstrous I tell you!

KWD• 18 years ago

Well here I can say I disagree with both. Let's focus on utilizing our already underemployed tech staff and give companies incentive to retrain and retain our existing 'knowledge' staff. The U.S. has plenty of capable employees without importing more.

The only instance I have some agreement with H1Bs is when a foreign student completed a degree from an American university. Otherwise, special processing to import employees for consulting firms, tech companies, etc. should not be allowed at all.

markessien3• 18 years ago

Looking at the issue with an objective eye, don't you think that if one took the very best from other countries that it would improve the overall skill level in your country, instead of taking the mediocre local talent and trying to train them to make them good?

The intelligence percentages are roughly the same for all countries (maybe 1% high gifted, 10% quite gifted and so on), so if you took the 1% from other countries, that would give the U.S of A a highly competitive advantage, don't you think?

geebee4• 18 years ago

Yes, I agree. The part where I start to get worried is that 1) the visas tilt heavily toward high tech, and 2) it's indentured. Both could be fixed...

Right now, we have a situation where Americans know that if they go into law, they'll be largely protected from competition. This also holds true to a lesser extent for medicine (my uncle, who is a radiologist, told me that licensing is a big factor in keeping the work in the US).

So if we expand this program, we should expect less interest among Americans in high tech, and more interest in law. This leads to a positive feedback loop (or negative, if you want to call it that). Fewer Americans -> more need for visas -> further deterrence to Americans -> greater shortage -> more visas...

The only real solution would be a global workforce where credentials and licenses are equally available regardless of nationality/border. But obviously, that's not happening.

As a result, I'd compromise by supporting a limited number of visas under terms that preserve the mobility of the worker. But a large expansion of the existing program? I think it's a bad idea.

anthonyrubin• 18 years ago

If only the very best were issued visas I might agree with you.

arockwell2• 18 years ago

Can you really ever have too many capable employees in one country? This is not a zero sum game.

mynameishere3• 18 years ago

It's not a simple balance-book question. Can you have too many capable people in one country, if one group is politically organized to the disparagement of another? Yes, you can. Yes, history has. All of history.

Further, it is hardly a matter of just high-skilled people. The vast bulk of "guest workers" are basically peasants and semi-skilled workers. It's all part of a larger ploy to drive up asset prices, drive down labor prices, and prevent national unity, which is much-feared by the ruling class.

Futher, should it not seem strange that both candidates, and both parties are in favor of a set of immigration policies that a majority of the people have consistently opposed decade-upon-decade? I hardly think pure democracy is a valid form of government, but at some point, after years and years and years, it is time to do the people's will rather than the elite's.

robak• 18 years ago

afraid of competition, huh? ;-) Maybe get to work;-) LOL

mynameishere3• 18 years ago

Why is this guy getting downmodded? He's saying the same thing as every other bastard, but making it clear that he's a bastard.

cstejerean2• 18 years ago

Where are the "underemployed tech staff"? I've yet to work for a company that wasn't struggling to find talent. Part of the problem is that it's hard for small companies to hire H1B holders because of the increased paperwork overhead (perceived or actual).

geebee4• 18 years ago

yes, but struggling at what price? I'm trying to recruit right now as well, and I'm having very serious trouble. But I'm limited in what I can offer salary-wise by my institution.

But here's the thing - suppose I'm offering enough to get people who have already chosen engineering as a path to work for me instead of someone else. That should be enough. But it isn't going to convince a college student to go into engineering instead of law.

Have you seen the compensation for first year associates at top firms? Engineers (even from top tier schools) don't hit that level until a decade in. (EDIT added later: this definitely does not mean I'd rather be a lawyer - I'm only using it as a reflection of the salary level on one competing field for the "best and brightest")

These struggles to find talent among US citizens may be a consequence of the large number of visas awarded. Which turns into a cause (can't recruit, so issue more visas). Which turns into a consequence...

If you use these programs to control wage growth in high tech, but leave other fields like law unchecked... you should expect us citizens to leave high tech and go into other fields instead, which is what we have.

mynameishere3• 18 years ago

This is the main reason Obama needs to win. I'm so fucking sick of anti-American republicans. Can we please allow the democrats to ruin the country? Please?

Dilpil• 18 years ago

A poll for those who think we need to restrict H1Bs to protect American tech workers: Why? Do you have trouble finding a job despite your degree and qualifications? If so what kind of job? Furthermore, why does being born on US soil give someone exclusive rights to write code on it?

pauljonas• 18 years ago

A great deal of misunderstanding about H1B and outsourcing...

Perhaps I will be down voted for dissenting, but I do write from personal experience. I've seen thousands of jobs outsourced, and contrary to the wisdom expressed on internet forums here and elsewhere, H1B is a prime facilitator of moving work offshore. Entire support/application teams relocated, but supplanted with a liaison team of slightly more experienced non immigrant visa workers brought on shore to work with business units.

It's had a direct effect on wages and opportunity, and a big cause of why American students decline to pursue computer science degrees. Sure, there have been winners and survivors, but the average wage / contract rate for a programmer is less than it was 20-30 years ago. Worse, opportunity has been snuffed out — 20 years ago, corporate jobs would go in search in-house looking for anyone who wished to step up and learn the craft, applying their business knowledge. Now, project work is simply delegated to offshore vendors.

I have no gripe with bringing in the best and the brightest from abroad. There should be no restrictions in that regard. And for many reading Hacker News, it is all about that. However, the bulk of H1B is allotted to entry level programmers that could have easily been filled by Americans, who could have the choice of a better career path alternative. I know, because I was the guy who had to train those guys who were flown in from India, and I would quickly determine that the extent of their training was reading a manual on the plane ride to the U.S.. No problem, the offshore vendor marketing representative would shrug, we'll send another guy tomorrow.

Many posts in defense here of H1B will cite 1s and 2s but corporate outfits use up hundreds (if not 1000s) of such slots. My past experience in Arizona, working for American Express, Honeywell, APS (power company) I can attest to thousands of positions filled by H1B that used to be manned by employees and on-shore contract workers. Most all of those positions are not the "best and the brightest", but imported entry level workers.

Then we consider that our reservation systems, utility company billing systems, charge card systems, claims adjudication are staffed predominately by foreigners. In a few years, the Americans who serve as subject matter experts will step aside and the expertise will be entirely with the offshore vendors. Now, I not going to invoke nationalistic appeals, because I do believe it should be a meritocracy, and some of the rhetoric I hear from xenophobic protectionist interests is simply sickening.

And yes, I've experienced difficulty in finding work in spite of my degree and qualifications. Or have seen my consulting rate / salary depressed because of H1B. I've retooled and work now for less than a third of what I made in the corporate world, as a web developer for a non-profit now — I've been blessed with a spouse that makes double that as a registered nurse. Soon, due to her having health issues, I may need to seek a better paying gig(s). My inbox does occasionally see a recruiter solicitation, but the rates/salary offered are a joke.

Furthermore, the adage that a company cannot find qualified help needs to be qualified with "cannot find help at the pay / rate being offered" — I could go on in this post with detailed occurrences but will cite just one that is emblematic of the issue. A colleague at a past work contract needed to hire a GIS developer and had a candidate in mind. But he could only offer a temporary 3-6 month contract at a rate less than market value. Still, his preferred candidate would have snagged it if there was some guarantee of full time employment at end of the "probationary" period, or an increase in rate or a bonus paid. None of it was to be forthcoming, so it was settled that an H1B candidate got the job.

McCain and Obama Unite on H1B Issue

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