How a democracy was hacked in Hungary

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/hungarys-constitutional-revolution/

by 3am • 15 years ago

8 9 15 years ago

krugman.blogs.nytimes.com

winestock2• 15 years ago

So the Fidesz party of Hungary has passed changes to the Hungarian constitution that will solidify their power even in the face of future electoral defeats. They have done all of this above the table, using the procedures and process of the current constitution. If this is okay, then it means that limitations on democracy are legitimate.

If this is not okay, then such power-solidifying measures must be disallowed, even if they are passed above the table using democratically agreed-upon processes and procedures. Therefore, limitations on democracy are legitimate.

What Krugman and his friend object to, then, is not the limitation of democracy, but who is doing the limiting. Note that they have no trouble contemplating that the Jobbik party could be outlawed by these new laws, but they are crestfallen that this could happen to the Socialists.

Quote: "According to a proposed constitutional amendment, the crimes of the former communist party will be listed in the constitution and the statute of limitations for prosecuting crimes committed during the communist period will be lifted. The former communist party is branded a criminal organization and the current opposition Socialist Party is designated as their legal successor. It is still unclear, legally speaking, what this amendment means. But it is probably not good for the major opposition party."

So the Reds may finally face justice for running the secret police, the concentration camps, the brainwashing, and other forms of oppression? Democracy or no democracy, that's payback.

po• 15 years ago

I think you're taking a lot out of context to make a point that I'm not sure I understand.

First, the democratic constitution allows an amending process so naturally it makes sense that you can repeal it. Transitioning from a democracy with checks and balances to an authoritarian one-party system is 'legitimate' if you want to use that term. The end result is not a democracy.

Secondly, don't let your apparent dislike of Krugman cloud your reading of this.

Under laws that preceded Fidesz’s election last year, political parties that are anti-constitutional may be banned. Some have suggested that Fidesz could eliminate Jobbik in this way. In fact, Europe probably would not mind if Jobbik were excluded from public life because other European countries can ban extremist parties also. But what about Fidesz’s primary competition – the Socialists?

Scheppele's concern with this is not that socialists will get punished, but that the only two viable parties will be eliminated.

Democracy or no democracy, that's payback.

This statement is so ridiculous I don't know if you mean it seriously or not. Do you mean to say that you would rather have no democracy with revenge than a functioning democracy with unpunished crimes from the past? The laws of a country are not where you go to get 'payback' against people you don't like. You take it to the courts... if you have any left.

zalew3• 15 years ago

>This statement is so ridiculous I don't know if you mean it seriously or not.

he probably did, I only don't know if it's lack of knowledge or personal political views.

I'm not an expert in Hungarian politics, but at least there is common stuff that we 'neighbors' share and happen to understand these situations a bit better than someone on the other side of the ocean. Our second major political party here in Poland are fans of Fidesz agenda, who said that wants Warsaw to be like Budapest. Well, luckily for the moment our nation spoke (during recent elections) that we certainly don't. Being an eastern block country citizen who happens not to be a right wing lunatic, one will probably understand that even post-communist nations need a strong left wing, even if only just to remain sane. This 'payback' stuff is mainly a far-right-wing agenda all around the region, european politics are not a cold war movie and the world is not black and white.

zalew3• 15 years ago

Fidesz, got 53% of the vote. This translated into 68% of the seats in the parliament under Hungary’s current disproportionate election law

in case anyone is curious, it's not actually a Hungarian thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Hondt_method

sakai• 15 years ago

Interesting, though picking on that one sentence sort of misses the point -- via long-term political appointments, supermajority requirements, constitutional reforms, and a host of other measures, Fidesz has critically wounded the ability of any political opposition to complete within the system.

zalew3• 15 years ago

it wasn't a point, just an insight on this particular method, which probably most US-based HN users aren't familiar with. Hungary is an extreme case, but it affects all elections using this system, giving dominant parties a disproportional advantage and skewing the raw poll result.

winestock2• 15 years ago

I am curious as to whether anyone saw this vulnerability ahead of time. Fidesz has essentially hacked the Hungarian constitution. Did anyone see this coming?

More fundamentally, would it have mattered if anyone had? A modern constitution needs to be written down. A democratic process must be agreed upon by all participants. By virtue of that, this set of political procedures is vulnerable to hacking. The hacker (or cracker, take your pick) can cycle through different attacks more quickly than the procedures can be hardened against them.

stoolpigeon• 15 years ago

And how did Fidesz get that 53%? The answer to that question tells so much. What would happen in a country like the US if a tape were leaked of Obama talking about "Lying day and night" just to win elections.

Drive around anywhere in Hungary and notice how many cars have "Big Hungary" stickers on the back. The history here is long and people remember. Brittain and France kicked the crap out of the Magyars with Trianon and the repercussions of that decision echo into today. They play rap songs on MR2 about it. Should anyone be surprised?

balsam• 15 years ago

Greg Wilson cited a "Barnes and Phillips 2002" study saying that true power is always concentrated in shadow committees. @1:00:40 http://vimeo.com/9270320 Anybody has a link to the paper?

How a democracy was hacked in Hungary

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