Why I Told CBS Corporation To Sue Me Without Wearing A Shirt

http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/?p=1293

by lionhearted • 15 years ago

51 37 15 years ago

sebastianmarshall.com

asto• 15 years ago

More like "Why I told CBS Corporation to sue me while not wearing a shirt".

When I read the title, I thought he wanted them not to wear shirts when they sued him!

Edit: changed "you" to "him" and "he" after zbowler pointed out that the author is not the one who posted on HN

zbowling3• 15 years ago

He is just the author, not the editor.

zbowling3• 15 years ago

in reply to your edit, actually I was referring to the fact that he is an author, and editors usually catch mistakes like that and not to the person that posted to HN (although reading his twitter, timing would lead me to be believe they are the same person).

zbowling3• 15 years ago

YouTube seems to be hating on this video. He only tears up about ~$60 that I can tell. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhVJl-OBEY4#t=861s

lionhearted9• 15 years ago

$50 USD, $70 USD worth of yen, $30 USD of euros, $16 USD of yuan, and I'm not sure the exchange rates on Singapore or UAE.

It was well-spent.

vasco2• 15 years ago

I was under the impression that it is illegal to tear up money, is this the case in the US as well?

smtf• 15 years ago

Here is a direct link to the youtube video. The video in page on Marshall's site wouldn't load for me:

http://youtu.be/hhVJl-OBEY4

MengYuanLong2• 15 years ago

Wow. So I read through his post, watched the video, and read the letter he wrote to S&S. All the while, I couldn't help but feel I recognized/knew/ or had read this guy's stuff before.

Somewhere around his mention of accomplishing super-human feats and cyclothymia, I connected him to the "Stop Being a Fucking Joker" rant.

I look forward to reading additional commentary about op's post and Mr. Marshall; but, I can't help but feel a distaste for his seemingly common use of public shaming. Perhaps a more effective and less aggressive form of communication would allow him to avoid these public spats. Then again, perhaps it is all part of a very effective pr campaign. After all, I now know who this guy is and am able to identify his writing.

lionhearted9• 15 years ago

These are great points, I'd like to address all of them -

First, yes.

Second, I've never released contact info or identifying details of anyone on my side - an employee, investor, or partner. Ever. It's always obfuscated pretty well - you have to protect people.

Third, everyone in an organization or the specific people will know, but that's what you get with me. Radical honesty/transparency... it's awesome, it's so liberating, and people are thoroughly informed that that's how it goes with me. It's not for everyone, that's for sure

Fourth, I'm gentler/nicer to people who are quiet, etc - you obviously don't hear about that... I try to communicate in a person's desired style, which is aggressive for driver-type people, but I'm more creative/relaxed with creatives, and very calm with calm people.

Fifth, the publishing industry's bullshit needs to end, and I need to air this out publicly. It's the only leverage anyone has. Merlin Mann's "Cranking" essay is what gave me confidence to stand up publicly, take a lot of abuse, and look to improve things.

Thank you for sharing your honest thoughts here.

MengYuanLong2• 15 years ago

Thank you for your response. One thing I love about Hacker News is the frequency that you get to engage in actual discussions with the authors. I am somewhat weary/apprehensive of your style, but I must confess I find it rather intoxicating.

I certainly plan to read through more of your postings and archives.

Most of all, I am glad to hear you adjust the message to the audience. I would expect nothing less from a marketing savvy individual but it is still comforting to read.

Good luck with your fight, it is unfortunate that so many industries continue to cling to outdated business practices and models.

mindcrime• 15 years ago

Amazing, absolutely amazing. The world needs more people like this. I don't even care if you agree or disagree with his fundamental position, or any specific details of what he's talking about.... but I admire the man for the willingness to do his own thing, to essentially tell a $MEGACORP to go fuck themselves, and to spit in the eye of the haters.

A little less political correctness, a little more uninhibited behavior and a healthy splash of controversy are always welcome, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, that delivery doesn't "work" for everybody, but some people need a little shock-value to capture their attention. And some people are inspired by seeing others show the willingness to step outside the perceived boundaries of their world.

Go Sebastian!

lionhearted9• 15 years ago

Thank you. A lot of people dislike me, but the people that appreciate what I'm doing keep me going, and we do a hell of a lot together. Godspeed.

DanBC5• 15 years ago

You know that "uninhibited behaviour" is a result of a serious mental health problem (bipolar), right? Being mentally ill isn't really a lifestyle choice.

srl2• 15 years ago

He said "a little more". There's a difference between being knowingly irrational from time to time and killing people on a whim.

JanezStupar• 15 years ago

Nigga please? Mental illness? How about, just playing the game to its fullest?

I have been guilty of this kind of behavior in the past. And I can totally relate to Sebastian here. In bureaucracies it is modus operandi for people in the top to count on fear and "decency" of people beneath them to not call out their bullshit.

In a court nobody can afford to comment on the emperors lack of clothes, since they are dependent on the system. But when an outsider comes as Sebastian did in this case - they have no power over him and this outsider has two options. He can walk away and solve his problem for himself - or he can call out the BS (risking some of his reputation on one end). Why? Because he is free of the influence of the court, thats what freedom means. You can be free as soon as you realize that you can do without the system, that you can forge your own system. You don't even need to be an outsider, just realize that freedom of mind is the ultimate freedom and that it cannot be taken away. You can have your body's freedom taken away, you can even get killed. But the freedom of the mind is the ultimate drug, the ultimate intoxication and the ultimate asset. And nobody can take it away.

Like he said, it is about treating people the way they want to be treated. It is also a winning strategy for an iterated prisoners dilemma - you offer cooperation, if they refuse - strike them into the ground.

What happened was that he "offered to save" the publishing industry, he has been around the block, seen other industries - but what he got in response was basically a "STFU NOOB!".

His response was pretty close as to what I would have done. When somebody wants to push me around with low blows, I get really upset. Especially if I am smarter and better prepared than they are. So if they want a dirty game - I will give them a dirty game. Hell I will show them state of the art in dirty.

And thats what Sebastian did.

Kudos to you Mr. Marshall!

p.s.: There is a lot of mental illness in the whole story, but Sebastian is not the one ill. Basically what Seb is doing is called Madman Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_theory) and it is completely, totally rational.

xiaoma2• 15 years ago

I just watched the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhVJl-OBEY4. It's an extended rant directed at his agent.

Summary: It seems he pissed off his publisher and his agent recommended he find another publisher and pay back what the publisher forwarded him. He doesn't think he'll be able to find another publisher or sell that many books, so he took off his shirt and made a long video in which he continually chastises his agent, rips up some of his money and rants about how the industry is crumbling and the internet will destroy them.

lionhearted9• 15 years ago

Incorrect.

Correct summary: I think the publishing industry is a cartel that abuses their editors, copy-editors, writers, authors, and so on. They're anti-modern, treat people bad, and threaten them. I'm taking a principled stand against them, and already walked away from $50,000 to do it.

If you disagree, just say so instead of being passive aggressive. Then real dialog happens.

Edit: This has been upvoted, and then downvoted. Hold on a second - this guy mis-summarizes in a snarky way instead of just saying what he thinks. He could write, "He's arrogant" (perhaps) or "I disagree with his style" (your call) or "I think publishing is awesome and in the right here" (you're crazy if you think so) - but instead, he mis-summarizes what's going on. That's basically the definition of passive-aggressive: Not saying what you really think, and being hostile anyways.

I say, "Hey, say what you think and get a dialog going" (I addressed some thoughtful points below, and answered them all) - and you upvote him with his petty snark, and not the guy saying "Hey, if you disagree, say it and we can discuss"? Wouldn't you like a more honest world? No?

vasco2• 15 years ago

How do you know with such certainty that what he wrote isn't what he thinks?

jerrya• 15 years ago

Hacker News is like KAOS, we don't do: gripes about voting or dududu (humor) here (regardless of how worthy the gripe or funny the humor is.)

xiaoma2• 15 years ago

Could you hold off on the calling me petty, snarky and passive-aggressive and just explain which part of my two sentence summary was "incorrect"?

I don't know exactly what you were alluding to with your claim that I wasn't saying what I really think, but I really was attempting to report what happened in the video and summarize it. Here is what my summary said:

1) It seems he pissed off his publisher

2) His agent recommended he find another publisher and pay back what the publisher forwarded him.

3) He doesn't think he'll be able to find another publisher or sell that many books

4) He took off his shirt and made a long video in which he continually chastises his agent

5) He rips up some of his money

6) He rants about how the industry is crumbling and will be destroyed by the internet

I really did believe all six of those things happened in the video. Which was I incorrect about, and what do you think I "really" believe but wouldn't write?

scott_s• 15 years ago

I was only able to watch about two minutes worth, but his summary sounds accurate to me.

The reason people aren't trying to start a dialog with you on your terms is that you don't seem rational. You seem unhinged. I saw your original open letter, and I thought the same. Based on these and your previous harangue against your team, I think you should consider seeking help.

DanBC5• 15 years ago

We need cstross to explain what "the cartel" does - trawl through slush piles, work with authors to produce manuscripts, edit, typeset, print, and distribute books.

ebooks should make a lot of this easier and better and more efficient, but the workflow and tools don't appear to be there yet. And Sturgeon's Law (90% of everything is bullshit) is skewed to 98% with self-publishing.

It's interesting to note that Sebastian had this revelation after taking $65,000 of Simon & Schuester's money in advance for a 50,000 - 60,000 word book that he has not given them. (Weirdly, he's written 180,000 words, so why he doesn't just send that and get it edited down to 50k is confusing.)

lionhearted9• 15 years ago

I only got paid the first 1/3rd, and walked away from the second 2/3rds after we were almost complete. Writing that honest letter cost me $42,900.

Maybe I'm a jerk, maybe you want to defend how badly traditional publishing treats their authors and staff (do you really think they can't do better? much better?) - but yeah, I walked away from around $50k here, and the writing was already agreed by agent and editor to be excellent at that point.

Principled stand, man. Most people don't get it, can't get it. But I think things need to improve, so I'm going to try to force things to improve.

cperciva2• 15 years ago

Quitting a job you hate is not "taking a principled stand". Taking a principled stand would be if you said "I love working with you, but I can't do it if you're going to continue to (print books on paper made from unsustainable forestry practices | allow the Chinese government to censor books | do other random evil stuff)".

The fact that you wrote a multi-page rant about how much you hate working with them demonstrates that you're quitting for your own sake, not because of any "principles".

cperciva2• 15 years ago

Really hard to judge this without seeing the letter the author was sent. If "repayment... more money than you even got" means pay back the advance plus interest because the book is being cancelled, this seems entirely reasonable. If it's "pay back the advance plus a million dollars because we feel like being unreasonable", that's a completely different story of course.

But it's definitely pegging my crazyometer.

lionhearted9• 15 years ago

Read for yourself -

http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/an-open-letter-to-simon-and...

I think it was raw, honest, and necessary. Maybe too mean? But again, it was 100% true.

> If it's "pay back the advance plus a million dollars because we feel like being unreasonable", that's a completely different story of course.

Ah, you missed the context. My agent was telling me that if I don't shut up and agree to terms immediately, I have to pay back his share of the advance to the publishing house. And I negotiated him up after he signed me from the standard 15% to 25% because I like people to be well-played. He didn't address when things were bad, forced bad terms in the contract to go through, didn't negotiate in my favor, and now threatened me... the whole industry is scummed up, man. People need to know what really happens - there's lots of stories like this, but most get hushed up.

> But it's definitely pegging my crazyometer.

Yeah, mine too. But don't you have to be a little crazy to walk away from a guaranteed $42,900 and fight a multi-billion dollar corporation with a massive legal team?

srl2• 15 years ago

Thank you for doing this.

Not that I give a damn, quite frankly, about the publishing industry. (I probably should, but I don't.) But the "shut up or we'll threaten to sue you - and just the threat will ruin you for a decade" meme is popping up all over the place (patent trolls, illegitimate MAFIAA takedowns taking years to resolve, and so on), and too often people go the logical route, sit down, and try to piece together their new life from under the boot. Every batshit-crazy shirtless nut we have is one more good role model for how to deal with this brand of thuggery.

So thanks, and keep it up.

DanBC5• 15 years ago

> "shut up or we'll threaten to sue you - and just the threat will ruin you for a decade"

That's not what's happening here. Perhaps you could point me to what's been said that makes you think it is what's happening?

vonskippy• 15 years ago

I'm pretty sure they have drugs for that now.

The manic part, not the douchebag part (I"m pretty sure you're beyond help on that one).

GiraffeNecktie• 15 years ago

I started reading the previous rant from the author - the letter to the CBS president - and stopped at the point where he goes ballistic because his 'immediate' payment took six weeks. For a giant corporation to cut a check six weeks sounds pretty immediate to me.

I feel sorry for his agent.

corkill• 15 years ago

I don't understand, what would agents like Jim do if there was no "publishing cartel"? What are they currently doing that they would continue doing?

I think not wearing a shirt makes it: -less likely I will share it -harder to assign credibility (even though I have already read your work and know your smart) -harder to focus on what your saying and finish video

These shirted videos are awesome http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/my-approach-to-business

Why I Told CBS Corporation To Sue Me Without Wearing A Shirt

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