Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep (2021)

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.01.026

by lukas099 • 4 years ago

111 39 4 years ago

doi.org

tardibear• 4 years ago

(2021)

AlphaWeaver• 4 years ago

https://xkcd.com/269/

nomel• 4 years ago

I don't have access, but I believe this is the PDF, based on the title: https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(...

karencarits• 4 years ago

Citing the conclusion of a detailed comment on pubpeer (https://pubpeer.com/publications/AB8B5472EB1E3301B3581AA7EDB...):

a highly-selective analysis of highly selected participants shows that a small minority of them seem able to respond to simple questions while they sleep. the stats here are a mess.

giantg23• 4 years ago

I don't think the stats were the point. The conclusion isn't about quantifying it. It's essentially a binary existence statement and "we found this phenomenon that needs more research".

radu_floricica• 4 years ago

Like giantg2 said. There are (at least) two types of studies: this is purely exploratory, proof-of-concept type. The reason "a group of british scientists" studies got such a bad reputation is because they were largely aimed at finding out new stuff, but got presented by the press as the proving things.

For discovery (or university science play) you're good with samples of 10-20 people. For proving stuff you need meta-analysis of several studies, ideally including RTCs and a couple of large longitudinal ones.

shrug science is complicated. Some stuff about how to do it properly has been leaking into the water supply, but overall public opinion is pretty much detached from the details and still thinks a study is a study.

sorokod• 4 years ago

Has been mentioned in a recent The Joy of Why podcast.

giantg23• 4 years ago

"Dreams take us to a different reality, a hallucinatory world that feels as real as any waking experience."

Does it really? It doesn't feel that real when you know it's a dream. All the dreams I can remember are always ones that I know it's a dream.

"rare phenomenon and lucid dreams can seldom be summoned at will, which has made it difficult for researchers to capture them in the lab in a reliable manner."

I mean, I can't summon them at will, but I do tend to dream most nights, and they're (as far as I can remember) always lucid.

I'm looking forward to more info about dreams and lucid dreams. I wonder if there's any correlation to stuff like dementia or early death. It seems like lucid dreaming is very tiring and that I don't wake well rested (I should add that I can generally control or struggle to control what goes on in the dream, so that might be part of it).

otikik• 4 years ago

I would say the opposite is true for me. I never know I am dreaming while I’m dreaming. You never have nightmares then, I take?

Baeocystin• 4 years ago

Not OP, but I can't think of a dream that I remember where I didn't know I was dreaming. Sometimes they are nightmares, but if it gets too bad I just remind myself that it's just a dream, and then that's pretty much that.

Ancalagon• 4 years ago

I also have never been able to lucid dream. Even the few instances where I realized I was dreaming I almost instantly woke up involuntarily.

I have heard keeping a dream-journal and using a few techniques inside the dream can give you the ability to lucid dream, but these haven't worked for me.

giantg23• 4 years ago

Not really. I can find myself in a nightmare situation, but I can then force it to play out differently. I don't wake up scared or anything, but I will wake up tired from forcing the dream to change or go a certain way.

soupfordummies• 4 years ago

Yeah this is interesting, it's maybe only a few times a DECADE where I'll realize I'm dreaming. Well, that I remember at least. I have pretty good dream recall most days but of course I lose a lot pretty soon after getting going.

nigerianbrince• 4 years ago

Keep asking yourself "am I dreaming" throughout the day. You'll lucid dream that night.

dalmo3• 4 years ago

All the dreams I can remember are always ones that I know it's a dream.

In my dreams I observe two orthogonal-ish aspects of lucidity: one is to know it's a dream, the other is to control my actions.

In most dreams I control myself but don't know it's a dream until I wake up. At times realising it's a dream immediately wakes me up.

The opposite is also common, where I know it's a dream but have no volition, it just plays out as a movie.

I'm sure there are dreams which are fully random but I can't seem to remember those.

Finally, I can only remember a single time when both combined. At first I just had control of my actions, then realised it was a dream. Then I remember proving to other people they were in a/my dream. That didn't last long before I woke up.

Tenoke• 4 years ago

It seems like lucid dreaming is very tiring and that I don't wake well rested

I spent a lot of time in my teens learning to lucid dream and I do credit it with worsening my sleep quality. If nothing else because I have to force myself to wake up when lucid dreams repeatedly turn creepy with their occupants unhappy with me for being the dreamer.

dzogchen108• 4 years ago

If you lucid dream every night you may find Tibetan Dream Yoga interesting. It can be secular or spiritual since it is a Buddhist practice.

See this book by a well-regarded teacher for more information: https://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Yogas-Dream-Sleep/dp/15593910...

gavinmckenzie• 4 years ago

I find it interesting that lucid dreaming has an impact on your feeling of restfulness. I can't say I've experienced the same, but I'll try to reflect on this more given that almost 100% of my dream states are lucid and have been for almost all of my adult life. As an adolescent, I would lucid dream only occasionally.

My personal experience with lucid dreaming is that I am almost always aware that I'm dreaming, and most of the time I'm content to let the dream play out. Sometimes I do intervene and become an active participant in the dream, rather than letting it happen like a cut-scene in a game. And, on occasion, I will rewind a scene that I'm unhappy with or I want to revisit.

I'll also sometimes find myself in a dream location and suddenly remember all the prior occurrences that I've visited the setting. It's the weirdest feeling because I'll have what feels like years worth of memories from experiences in that dream setting that come rushing back to me. Memories that I can only vaguely grasp when I'm conscious, but as soon as I'm back in a particular setting all those prior experiences are remembered -- things that happened in the environment, character interactions, etc.

It's a bit unsettling when I wake up because for a moment I feel like I have these parallel life experiences from different realities stored in my head, mostly partitioned from each other.

mindcrime• 4 years ago

I hope this research is quickly buried and never resurfaces again. Why? Because the last thing I want is to be asleep and dreaming and have some dream character approach me and say "I've been trying to reach you about your vehicle's extended warranty!" Do. Not. Want.

xattt• 4 years ago

This is when the needle deflections go off the scale and the electroencephalograph catches fire like in the movies.

More-nitors• 4 years ago

"...now, if you sign up for this insurance, you'll get ..."

jokabrink• 4 years ago

Excuse me Sir, do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviour Jesus Christ?

stuntkite• 4 years ago

Like that episode of Futurama where Fry gets fancy space underpants inserted into his dreams. This paper is for sure the foundation for that.

SamPatt• 4 years ago

If I realize I'm dreaming, then it becomes a lucid dream, but a timer also starts ticking. I can't usually remain dreaming for more than 30 seconds (or what feels like that long).

I usually realize I'm dreaming because I'm talking with someone who, I all of a sudden remember, is dead in real life (usually my parents). They then comfort me about this fact until I wake up.

I could probably communicate something to an external observer for that brief window. I don't know how it would be useful though - I typically remember the lucid dream portion vividly upon waking up.

wombat-man• 4 years ago

I'm the same way. It's fun while it lasts!

Nomentatus2• 4 years ago

During the day practice moving your attention from spot to spot in a triangle maybe 10 degrees of a side. Don't move your eyes, just your attention. (Your fovea is usually served by a lot of extra brain power, but with practice most of that computation (sharpening) power can be shifted. It probably won't happen the first few times, but you can eventually get this result, and it'll be obvious enough that you won't be in much doubt about it.

Then when you start to realize you are lucid dreaming, shift your dream eyes (your attention) in similar triangles, while keeping calm as you can. This will help keep the dream from dissolving for a couple reasons, if you can remember to start doing it, and do keep doing it until the dream stabilizes again and lucid dreaming seems less startling.

Asking yourself, seriously but very calmly, many times during the day whether you are lucid dreaming helps too; to increase the chances of lucidity, but even more to reduce the excitement of finding yourself lucid dreaming (which adrenaline spike can send you to wakefulness) by making the question a fairly ordinary one. Make sure you always start doing the triangular attention-shifting as soon as you start to ask the question, each time - to make that a habit that goes with that question/realization.

Some of this information can be found in Casteneda's writings, some can't.

ReDeiPirati• 4 years ago

I've started having lucid dreams by reminding me of "watching my hands" frequently and repeating a short mantra as described in Castaneda book (iirc the second one he wrote). It took me less than 3 weeks to start experiencing those. The first one was one of the most powerful and energetic experience of my life. I woke up with "I did it!" and started grasping because of the excitement.

Something that help me from dissolving is to frequently reminding of shaking my hands during the dream, it gives a temporary boost of consciousness.

The scariest thought that I had during my experiences was a time when I found myself thinking: 'what if I'll not be able to get back...'. I was walking in a dark world lighted by a moon for moments that felt like hours. I discovered that relaxing was enough to get back.

comboy2• 4 years ago

There are some tricks which can help you stay there. E.g. you can try spinning around and then usually you end up in a different place. Also, if you haven't been lucid dreaming for a long time yet it may come naturally as you get less frantically excited that you've achieved it.

But there are also levels to lucidity. I remember having dreams when I knew I was dreaming before I've been lucid dreaming and it was a very different experience.

With full lucidity everything is in such a mind boggling great detail which I cannot achieve in the real world with my eyes and yet I know it's all made up in my head. I can carefully examine surface of some thing and it's so unreal that this touch experience is only a dream.

I highly recommend to at least try it a few times for those who haven't. Profound life experience.

However personally I don't do these anymore (or even hardly remember any dreams, low amount of sleep may be related), because dreams tend to consume me a bit. They can be such a powerful experiences that I may spend good part of the day thinking about them and I'd rather take in what's around me. I wonder if anybody here can relate to that part.

dorkwood• 4 years ago

There are some tricks which can help you stay there. E.g. you can try spinning around and then usually you end up in a different place.

I tried this once. It immediately popped me out of the dream.

noduerme• 4 years ago

I've only ever had one lucid dream, in which I was being chased and realized I could just throw myself off a cliff to wake up, which is what I immediately did. I wish I could have more.

I really enjoy when I remember my dreams and they consume part of my day. I consider it productive. If I let them, they reveal themselves more to me as the day goes on, and there's usually an "aha" moment when I realize what a dream was a metaphor for, usually something I'm struggling with in real life. Often they also give me new ideas for creative design problems I'm working on. Sometimes a building or a landscape I'm walking through is even laid out to show me a better way to approach an algorithm.

I can relate, though, to wanting to clear the fog that comes with holding onto a dream, and get on with the day in reality. Usually if I decide one isn't worth reading too much into, I can just jot a few words about it down and let it go.

Chyzwar• 4 years ago

"Are You Dreaming?: Exploring Lucid Dreams: A Comprehensive Guide" from Daniel Love. This is a good book to introduce into lucid dreaming.

jimmaswell• 4 years ago

That theory that you make up the entire memory of a dream the instant you wake up based on the "randomized" state of the brain at sleep must be bunk then.

throw827474737• 4 years ago

A theory, or an urban myth? I believe much debunkable by many simpler observations even without tech...

Borrible• 4 years ago

https://dxe.pubpub.org/pub/dreamadvertising/release/1

Are in-deep dream-ads for deep-dream sleep-aids appropriate?

The Sleeper Must Awaken!

weq• 4 years ago

Learning about Lucid dreaming is a worthy investment of effort that can be rewarding everytime you rest your eyes which is over 50% of your life if you get enough. I used to struggle with sleep, getting to sleep, staying asleep. I dreamt alot.

It takes some time, but with just a basic technique about becoming alert and staying asleep at the same time, it can be assecible to all. I started out by trying to fly, progressed to completely orchestrating dreamscapes including summonsing different dream charactors at will.

Real-time dialogue between experimenters and dreamers during REM sleep (2021)

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