Judge rules Charter must pay $1.1B after murder of cable customer

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/09/judge-rules-charter-must-pay-1-1-billion-after-murder-of-cable-customer/

by Vaslo • 4 years ago

63 23 4 years ago

Sounds excessive until you read:

Charter was accused of hiring Holden without verifying his employment history and ignoring a series of red flags about his behavior, which included stealing credit cards and checks from elderly female customers.

and

"Charter knowingly or intentionally committed forgery with the intent to defraud or harm Plaintiffs," Renteria wrote. The family's attorney previously said that "Charter Spectrum attorneys used a forged document to try to force the lawsuit into a closed-door arbitration where the results would have been secret and damages for the murder would have been limited to the amount of Ms. Thomas's final bill."

elliekelly3• 4 years ago

Those lawyers belong in prison. That’s disgusting and unconscionable behavior. I don’t say this often but if that sort of behavior isn’t criminal it ought to be. Their actions were an attempt to defraud this family of the $1.1 billion they’re entitled to receive.

toomuchtodo• 4 years ago

At a minimum, they should be disbarred and held personally liable for damages at an amount that ruins them. Incentives matter, as does sending a message to the next ethically challenged cohort considering such behavior.

puffoflogic• 4 years ago

if that sort of behavior isn’t criminal it ought to be

Malfeasance by anyone in the justice system is never criminal. They would never do that to themselves. If the legislature fails to carve out protections, they'll simply make them up out of whole cloth, such as judicial immunity.

vba6162• 4 years ago

the $1.1 billion they’re entitled to receive

You would agree this is not the norm for wrongful death lawsuits, yes? I mean, at the rate they occur, businesses would all be out of business if it cost $1B every time.

Casually referring to someone being "entitled" to a billion dollars therefore raises the question of why most people aren't; have you any opinion on that?

From what I've heard if you talk to a lawyer about suing they are going to say that potential damages are largely dependent on lost years of life and earnings, and so, say, a retired homemaker isn't worth it.

noobermin• 4 years ago

Isn't forgery like that illegal beyond merely unethical? Couldn't those attorneys be disbarred? It can't be okay for lawyers to forge documents knowingly.

voxic11• 4 years ago

It would have to be proven that the lawyers knew the documents were forged and weren't simply acting on the representations made by their clients.

tristor• 4 years ago

They should have upheld the original $7B judgement purely because of this:

"The jury also found that "Charter knowingly or intentionally committed forgery with the intent to defraud or harm Plaintiffs," Renteria wrote. The family's attorney previously said that "Charter Spectrum attorneys used a forged document to try to force the lawsuit into a closed-door arbitration where the results would have been secret and damages for the murder would have been limited to the amount of Ms. Thomas's final bill."

I'm as mercenary and capitalist as one can be, but I still have personal ethics. There is NO EXCUSE for that sort of intentional maliciousness from a company. Corporations are an entity of the state with an intention to serve the public, this should result in the FTC getting involved and stripping their corporate charter and forcing a sale of their assets to their competitors, and the jailing of the executives involved in the process of that forgery.

$7B is a pittance compared to that, the fact it was lowered to less than 2% of their revenue in 2019 (the year the murder happened), is fucking despicable.

pirate787• 4 years ago

America's cable companies have succeeded through unethical partnerships with state, local, and federal politicians. The industry is a cartel that has long enjoyed monopoly protection against video competition, and plays the political game extremely well. The result is cable companies have dishonest and anti-consumer corporate cultures. Happily, technological and some regulatory competition are forcing some incumbents to improve (Comcast in particular) but as a group these companies are best understood as the vicious winners of a legalized system of bribery.

janlin19994• 4 years ago

Seems outrageous that the company used a forged document and it seems that there should be some personal consequences to that (in addition to corporate consequences).

The part of this case that raises an interesting question for me is whether Charter's employment of this individual was reasonable. If Charter conducted a background check and saw that the prospective employee had stolen credit cards and checks before, should that have been sufficient reason to not hire him? It's not as if the prospective employee had a prior murder conviction. Even if the prospective employee did have a prior murder conviction: if people feel that the company should not hired the employee, then that seems like it would have a chilling effect on the hiring of felons. From that perspective, it seems excessive to hold the company accountable for this particular action (assuming that this has not been an issue with other employees).

autoexec• 4 years ago

If Charter conducted a background check and saw that the prospective employee had stolen credit cards and checks before, should that have been sufficient reason to not hire him?

They didn't run a background check. He'd been robbing other charter customers. from the linked article:

In the days before Thomas' murder, Holden made 'outcries' to supervisors about personal and financial issues related to a divorce that left him without money or a place to stay, and he cried in a meeting with his supervisor during which he said he was 'not OK,' according to attorneys for Thomas' family. They said that immediately after being denied money, he began scamming elderly female Spectrum cable customers by stealing their credit cards and checks."

He then "went on a spending spree with her credit cards" after murdering the woman. I'm a fan of hiring ex-felons and giving people second chances, but it seems they had reason enough to be concerned about this guy.

janlin19994• 4 years ago

They didn't run a background check.

I also had read they didn't run a background check beforehand. Upon a closer read, however, it turns out that Charter did conduct actually run the background check (from the article):

> Holden's pre-employment criminal background check "showed no arrests, convictions, or other criminal behavior."
I'm a fan of hiring ex-felons and giving people second chances, but it seems they had reason enough to be concerned about this guy.

To be clear, Holden was not an ex-felon when Charter hired him. From that perspective, this might have been Holden's first or second chance. What the plaintiffs argue is that Charter did not verify employment history and if they had done so, they should have known not to hire Holden. In this article (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/06/jury-holds-chart...), it appears that Holden had previously been fired for "forgery, falsifying documents and harassment of fellow employees."

So, my counter-factual question: suppose they had verified his employment history and knew this -- should Charter have not hired Holden? Would it be reasonable for any company to hire Holden? If not, is there any chance for Holden to productively rejoin society?

If Charter had verified Holden's employment history, it would have been entirely reasonable for them to have not hired Holden. However, I think it would be reasonable for a company to decide to take a chance on hiring such a person. Keep in mind that the criminal background check did not turn anything up, so Holden was not convicted in a court of law.

However, this judgment against Charter (putting aside Charter's forging of a legal document) makes the risk of hiring an employee very, very high: if an employee goes berserk on company time, then the company can be liable for over a billion dollars? This seems like it would have a chilling effect on the hiring of ex-felons and those with mental health issues.

In the days before Thomas' murder, Holden made 'outcries' to supervisors about personal and financial issues related to a divorce that left him without money or a place to stay, and he cried in a meeting with his supervisor during which he said he was 'not OK,' according to attorneys for Thomas' family. They said that immediately after being denied money, he began scamming elderly female Spectrum cable customers by stealing their credit cards and checks."

This does complicate the case, but would Charter have had a reasonable opportunity to have prevented this? Essentially, Holden appears to have had a clean background check, and he asked for money from his supervisors. Seems reasonable for his supervisors to have declined giving him money. Then what? Was Charter supposed to fire Holden for asking for money and being emotionally distraught? That does not seem reasonable. The plaintiffs might argue that Charter should have placed Holden on some sort of leave, but having a policy for paid leave seems to leave companies vulnerable to abuse while having a policy for unpaid leave seems cruel. Once Charter found out about these behaviors, it makes sense for Charter to have denied him additional opportunities, but it sounds like the murder happened early on.

In summary, we tend to dislike ISPs for various reasons, and perhaps some of us are not troubled by a company like Charter being liable for such a large amount. I am concerned, however, that a judgment like this will have a chilling effect on the hiring of certain groups of people.

silisili• 4 years ago

Judge should have told them the 1.1B fine is for new customers only, and stuck with the 7B one.

timmattison• 4 years ago

This comment is legendary

horseAMcharlie• 4 years ago

Now I'm not in the USA or familiar with this case, but if anybody wants to reply with even a brief explanation of why there appears to be no criminal charges regarding the forged documents, I'd appreciate it.

Judge rules Charter must pay $1.1B after murder of cable customer

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