What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

http://blogs.plos.org/neurotribes/2011/10/28/what-kind-of-buddhist-was-steve-jobs-really/

by larve • 15 years ago

128 65 15 years ago

blogs.plos.org

ericmoritz• 15 years ago

"There's nothing holy about mindfulness" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri2hA1TqDT4

gwern2• 15 years ago

Not much of one. I read the bio too, and got a different picture - Jobs used Buddhism because he had such problems. We'll probably never know what problems specifically, just like we'll never know what his eating issues were (Isaacson says Jobs was urged to see a therapist about it, but refused) - narcissism as one woman speculated? Bi-polar?

To me, the most insightful anecdote was:

> 'Our consumer desires are unhealthy, he told her, and to attain enlightenment you need to develop a life of nonattachment and non-materialism. He even sent her a tape of Kobun Chino, his Zen teacher, lecturing about the problems caused by craving and obtaining things. Egan pushed back. Wasn’t he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted? “He was irritated by the dichotomy, and we had exuberant debates about it,” Egan recalled.'

Yes, I guess that's one way to describe it...

larve2• 15 years ago

In retrospect, that biography is quite lacking on a lot of points. It seems like Isaacson was not able to get through to jobs in any other way than Jobs allowed. Maybe this is due to him rushing the book to be released 2 weeks after his death, there is almost no analysis of Jobs.

I also wonder how Jobs, as buddhist as he was, would rationalize his anger. In the book he repeatedly says "that's how I am", which is pretty much what buddhism tries to undo. He definitely was an irrational man.

codex4• 15 years ago

There are limits to Buddhism. It can't change your sexual orientation; it can't make you immune to pain, and, apparently, it can't eliminate temper--especially if you're ancestors are from herder societies, which evolved temper to protect their vulnerable assets. Certain things are predominately innate.

michaelochurch3• 15 years ago

I can relate to this "Jobs wasn't a real Buddhist" nonsense because I practice Buddhist meditation and still can have a difficult personality. (I'm extremely intense and opinionated, to the point of being moralistic.) I was a lot worse when I had no spiritual path. The fact that I still have personal difficulties (as nearly everyone does, including most Buddhists) does not mean that my practice has been without value.

Spiritual progress is intensely personal and hard to measure, but the existence of anger in a person doesn't make that person "a bad Buddhist". It's not like Western concepts of religion where you're a bad $RELIGIOUS_DEMONYM or a good one. There are skilled people and unskilled people. Steve Jobs was using Buddhist teachings and practices to develop skills that most people don't have and that he probably lacked, to some degree, even unto death. No shock there. Getting to Enlightenment takes a long time.

Arjuna• 15 years ago

"Wasn't he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted?"

Buddhism expresses a distinction between a thing in and of itself and an individual's interpretation of a thing.

"Computers and other products" are simply things in and of themselves. However, it is the individual that applies an interpretation to these things, such that the individual can allow these things to define him or her.

In essence, there is nothing "defying that philosophy", as the question asks. If an individual covets or self-identifies with a thing, Buddhism says that this attachment is what ultimately causes suffering. This attachment is the result of an individual's interpretation of a thing, and not due to a thing in and of itself.

gwern2• 15 years ago

> "Computers and other products" are simply things in and of themselves. However, it is the individual that applies an interpretation to these things, such that the individual can allow these things to define him or her.

It is also an individual who devotes his life towards working on ever more desirable consumer products, and also individuals who devise and support ad & PR campaigns based on the idea of defining oneself with a brand and associating with it and all the insidious consumerism ideology that comes with 'lifestyle' brands.

> In essence, there is nothing "defying that philosophy", as the question asks.

The philosophy in question was not Buddhism's ontology, which varies drastically from Madhyamika-style emptiness to older karma entities; nothing can defy that philosophy because they are consistent with all possible actions and observations. The reference was to the moralizing; for all you wrote, I still see tension between a stance based on eliminating cravings and a life spent stoking and satisfying for cash cravings.

drzaiusapelord• 15 years ago

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

Homunculiheaded• 15 years ago

"Wasn't he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted?"

Just to add to this, buddhism actually has the idea of "right livelihood" which is one part of the noble 8-fold path. The 'wrong' livelihoods are enumerated: Business in weapons, human beings, meat, intoxicants and poison. essentially things that do physical harm to other life. Attachment is all around us, not just consumer goods. It is no particular "sin" for Jobs to make a livelihood selling things people want, overcoming our desire for consumer goods is just a small step in many life times process of liberation.

eurohacker• 15 years ago

zen buddhism could have been a treatment program for this dude ,

as the character was not the most loved one among his employees, competitors etc. , needed some improvements

johnwahan• 15 years ago

It is none of your business, leave him alone. I think he would be sick of that idolatry.

noarchy• 15 years ago

Would he? His private life was indeed very private while he was alive. But, the guy sat down for hours of interviews with Isaacson so that a book could be produced about him. If he didn't to be the centre of any kind of attention, he choose strange ways of showing it.

runjake2• 15 years ago

That would seem to contradict Steve Jobs' ad his wife's desire to publish an un-candy-coated (as quoted in the book) biography of the man's life, both his successes and his serious failures.

The man clearly wanted people to know and ponder all of these things.

runjake2• 15 years ago

An imperfect one, like the rest of us.

Edit: since I'm getting downvoted into oblivion, let me elaborate: no Buddhist is perfect, if they were perfect, they probably wouldn't see a need to study Buddha's teachings.

It's not like Jobs was out criticizing how people lived their lives in "sin".

Alex39172• 15 years ago

Steve was perfect as he was, he just needed some improvents.

Alex39172• 15 years ago

To those downvoting my comment, get off the Internet and go read the books the post is talking about, specifically Zen Mind, Beginners Mind. Then maybe you'll get what Steve actually believed.

mechnik3• 15 years ago

Steve Jobs, imperfect.

His core, perfection itself.

Old pond, droid jumps in.

bfrs• 15 years ago

To me Zen seems like a lot of vague mumbo-jumbo. It can be interpreted any which way you want, making it sometimes seem wise and profound. The Buddhism I learned is quite simple and clear. It just boils down to two Golden Rules:

1. The Golden Rule: Treat others as you wish to be treated. 2. The Golden Mean: Everything in moderation, nothing in excess.

and the related commentary as to why these are good policies to follow.

davidw• 15 years ago

Another rule I think makes sense in the world is a sort of temporally shifted golden rule: try and leave things better than when you found them to do unto future people what you would wish them to do had they gone before you.

radu_floricica• 15 years ago

This could be Dunning Kruger effect at work ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect ).

From what I know, there isn't much (any?) major debunking of zen from people who've studied it closely, the way it's easy to find on Christianity.

mechnik3• 15 years ago

Zen first flowered in Japan during the Kamakura period because it appealed to samurai as a no-nonsense approach to dealing with that time period's problems (i.e. Mongol invasion) Over the years, the mumbo-jumbo factor accrues, but there are always reformers who try to keep Zen practice relevant (e.g. Shunryu Suzuki).

Jach• 15 years ago

Re #1: what if you're a masochist?

Estragon• 15 years ago

No, it's a lot more than that. It is a practical method for awakening to aspects of life which most people hide from. Though you wouldn't know it from content-free, gossippy BS like in the OP article.

mmphosis• 15 years ago

  Wake Up!
  Life is transient
  Swiftly passing
  Be aware
  The Great Matter
  Don’t waste time.

bobtm• 15 years ago

So he was an atheist. It would come as a shock to a number of Apple fanboys in the US. Edit : so downvoters think a buddhist is not an atheist ? or that it would not shock anyone in the US ? or what ?

pbhjpbhj3• 15 years ago

I don't know why people have downvoted you but ... Buddhism doesn't contradict there being a deity and some Buddhists worship figures as if they were gods and certainly consider some to have supernatural powers.

So it would seem based on the story here that you've not a strong starting point. Perhaps he was a deist/agnostic/atheist/apatheist I don't know or particularly care.

As to your second assertion, how is it relevant to peoples regard for the devices/software he was party to? How is that line of enquiry pertinent to HN?

xavoy• 15 years ago

Wow there is a lot of misinformation here, especially about Zen.

If making beautiful things is encouraging attachment then I guess all of the Zen poets and painters weren't (and aren't) very Zen either. Nor are the architects, florists or writers.

And to say that he wasn't or couldn't be a Buddhist simply because he had imperfections and flaws? What?!

Also, look up Vimalakirti. You don't need to renounce the world and material possessions to be a 'good' Buddhist, whatever that is.

mrmasa• 15 years ago

Let me clear a couple of basic things related to this issue.

The origin of Zen comes from greater vehicle Buddhism. In Buddhism, we have two main derivatives: greater vehicle Buddhism and small vehicle Buddhism.

Small vehicle Buddhism devotedly focuses on what Buddha done to reach nilvana. So, they execute tough ascetic training in shrines.

But, as we know, not everyone can execute such training because of many reasons. So, greater vehicle Buddhism was born. And Zen was established in China by indian Buhddist, Daruma because it was heretical in India. After Confucianism became major religion in China, Japan was the successor of Zen. This is the history.

This story is pertially closed to the origin of Christianity.

Zen is the practice everyone can do. Controlling anger, relieving oneself from anxiety, and exploring answers inside, not outside. That's all. The meditation is one of the methods. We can do it everywhere.

One of the key concept in Buddhism is "changing ever". Everything is unstable.

And, I realize that one of the Jobs's greatest management philosophy is to release his past. This philosophy is very closed the above concept in Buddhism. As we get old, we easily stick to our past achievement. But, it doesn't mean anything, even will be bottleneck for us to step forward simply because everything changes, which also means everything is imperfect.

I think this is why Jobs used to said "the death is the great invention" because we are forced to step forward by death.

I think it's not about religious thing, it's about philosophy every one should have.

For me, it's not important whether Jobs is a kind of Buhddhist or not. He taught us "to release past". That's a most important thing.

rms• 15 years ago

The kind that believed meditation was something he did sometimes.

What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

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