Calgarians detail life with an electricity load limiter

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/utility-bills-electricity-limiters-calgary-1.6388949

by PaulHoule • 4 years ago

86 130 4 years ago

tomohawk5• 4 years ago

Rising utility bills have community advocates worried

Instead of being worried, why don't they pay the utility bills of the people they're so concerned about?

Public utilities are a common good, and it is important that they be paid for so that they continue to be a common good.

worik13• 4 years ago

The people with the least money are getting the most expensive power

I do not think this should be called a "utility". The electricity itself is. But the system of paying for it is not.

Surely we can build better societies than this?

tomohawk5• 4 years ago

Societies are descriptive, not prescriptive.

That is, what people do constitutes society.

If you want a better society, then act better. Do what you can.

Do you care about the people affected by this? Can you do something about it? Then do so.

Is there something preventing these advocates from paying the bills for the people they are concerned about?

eweise2• 4 years ago

the public utility could just pass the costs onto the other customers.

tomohawk5• 4 years ago

Which they likely do anyway, if the regulating commission allows it.

How is it fair to require involuntary servitude on the part of paying customers to pay for what they did not use?

Those who are actually concerned should pay the bill if it is important to them. Pushing the bill onto others while expressing concern is not real concern. Forcing one person to pay for what another person needs is involuntary servitude (slavery).

ozzythecat• 4 years ago

Didn’t quite understand why this is news. The limiter idea is actually pretty novel. Twice in my life I fell behind on the electric bill, and it was shut off entirely.

Maybe I’m reading between the lines, but to write this news article focusing on the plight of a mother and her children - there’s clearly some agenda here. More subsidies or free electricity for certain people? I’m not arguing in favor or against this, but there’s clearly some intent.

worik13• 4 years ago

The agenda is that families should not be left to starve and freeze because of flawed economic arrangements.

I share that agenda. I expect everyone to share that agenda

worik13• 4 years ago

Load limiters allow for continued operation of a furnace, a few lights and small appliances (but only one at a time). If too much electricity is used at once, the limiter will trip — turning off the power all together, until the meter is reset physically by the client or remotely by the distribution company.

Ok. Freeze or starve. A choice.

There is no place in Hell bad enough for these utility companies.

throwawayffffas• 4 years ago

While I understand the sentiment the previous default that still applies to most of the world is that when you fall behind your electricity payments it gets shut off. The limiter is a humanitarian middle ground, acknowledging that electricity is now a basic need.

turtlebits• 4 years ago

If you don't have money to pay, you can handle some compromises.

- Have the family in a bedroom + space heater (I still do this, and did it for A/C during the heat wave). - Cook on a hot plate/induction or use a microwave. - Electric blankets

slibhb4• 4 years ago

The idea that people can't pay their bills because of "flawed economic arrangements" is pure dogma.

I don't think we should let people starve or freeze but people have to be acculturated to pay for what they use. A load limiter seems like a reasonable middle ground.

yumraj• 4 years ago

there’s clearly some agenda here

I have to agree a little bit.

Moreover, I'm also going to be a bit insensitive here as this particular person, as shown in the photo supposedly has 2 kids already, and is now on a maternity leave (as mentioned in the article) for the 3rd kid (assuming no twins), while she is unable to pay for utility.

Should she be really having another kid while hoping for the state to help/bailout via subsidies? Where does personal responsibility fall into all of this?

Justsignedup• 4 years ago

Typically I find that people who argue for these very harsh penalties for being poor also argue against easy access to contraception / abortion.

So not sure. But it is a valid argument, if you can barely afford to live, why make it even more expensive to live?

giraffe_lady4• 4 years ago

It falls directly onto the necks of those children where it was always intended to go.

johnny22• 4 years ago

considering everybody is talking about the decline of births, shouldn't we be paying her more?

I don't know if that's a serious question or not, but somebody's gotta square the difference.

BaseballPhysics2• 4 years ago

Didn’t quite understand why this is news.

Because in Alberta the cost of electricity has essentially doubled in the past 4-6 months (my own cost of electricity went from about $70 a month to $130), and folks who were previously living on the edge are now being pushed over, hence the article noting that "community advocates [are] worried the number of Calgarians facing this scenario will increase, and many don't know what a load limiter is."

Local news stories require understanding the local context.

a9h74j• 4 years ago

I wish the article would have mentioned how many W or kW the electrical draw was limited to.

Scoundreller4• 4 years ago

Appears to be two types: 15A and just 120V ( I guess they bridge together the two phases?) that is manually resettable.

The other is 240V and 15A and auto resets, which I guess limits you to 15A on each side of your home (have fun figuring out what’s on what side):

https://ucahelps.alberta.ca/utilities-disconnection-and-load...

jeroenhd• 4 years ago

1800W seems more than enough to run household appliances like an electric stove. It won't be comfortable, but it's not the "starving to death" situation the article claims.

I can see the value in these limiters, because without them people will quickly sink into debt not paying their power bills.

Of course, the underlying problem (poverty, sky-high energy prices) needs to be dealt with, but that can only be done with aid of the government and a social safety net. Lacking that, limiters can at least keep costs down.

That said, the $104 bill you get for having this stuff installed is bullshit. Limiters can be a tool for preventing poverty, but sending a large bill to the poor is a clear sign that these things aren't installed to help anyone.

worik13• 4 years ago

$52 for the notice, $52 to remove the limiter

The very rich come up with novel and creative ways to take money off the very poor.

oh_sigh4• 4 years ago

The alternative is for the company to eat the cost of payment enforcement, and raise the price of everyone's service a little bit. Which doesn't seem exactly fair, since many of the service users may be in similar financial circumstances as the lady in the article, but just make better decisions regarding their money.

worik13• 4 years ago

Which doesn't seem exactly fair

There is so much injustice perpetrated in the name of fairness

__del__2• 4 years ago

i don't think raising rates for other customers is what "eating the cost" means. it's also possible to profit less.

tomrod4• 4 years ago

The alternative is for the company to eat the cost of payment enforcement, and raise the price of everyone's service a little bit

Seems moral to me. As a community member, I'm happy to play a bit to ensure those unable to pay don't freeze in the winter

Signed,

-Texan who was without power during a major cold snap and wonders why the "independent" electric grid isn't an active priority

BaseballPhysics2• 4 years ago

Just another way that it's incredibly expensive to be poor. Can't get cheap credit to pay for your leaking roof? That's fine, here's a usurious loan. Can't afford a new car? Okay, buy a cheap (well, not anymore...) used one that'll constantly break down and require repairs or replacement. Forget a bill was coming out and accidentally use your overdraft? That's fine, we'll just charge you a hefty fee for that. The list goes on and on...

p1mrx• 4 years ago

I searched for "meter ring load limiter", and found this product: http://www.brooksutility.com/products/75

So the utility installs a 10-30 amp circuit breaker outside the customer's house. Should be enough to power a gas furnace, but if they draw more than 1200-7200 watts (120V*10A to 240V*30A), the breaker pops and they have to go outside and reset it.

worik13• 4 years ago

In a Calgary winter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calgary#Climate

Evil

Scoundreller4• 4 years ago

It’s almost certainly gas heat, but you need electricity to run the blower. If they’re not providing enough power for that, there’s no point in even bothering to limit.

throwaway8943455• 4 years ago

I was going to say that those temperatures sounded not a lot colder than my native Iowa, but apparently Iowa’s coldest month averages 55 degrees F (absurd) according to: https://en.climate-data.org/north-america/united-states-of-a...

worik13• 4 years ago

This is relevant.

https://moneywise.com/managing-money/budgeting/boots-theory-...

nostrademons2• 4 years ago

Also relevant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_and_Dimed

specialist2• 4 years ago

Yes and: Their punitive electricity rate limiting is just short of debtor's prison, with cost saving measure of using the victim's domicile as their holding cell.

Animats• 4 years ago

Those used to be common in the UK, along with "pay as you go" meters, where, when your prepay runs out, the power cuts off. That still exists.[1] It's now "cloud-based", so you can pay from your smartphone and turn the power back on.

The limiter is less restrictive. You still get some power.

[1] https://sse.co.uk/help/energy/meters/pay-as-you-go/topping-u...

jmyeet• 4 years ago

This is disgusting. I didn't even realize this was a thing.

We as a society should not be withdrawing basic rights from people (including heating, shelter and just keeping a fridge running) in the name of capitalism. And if we're that worried that people will take advantage of it, let the government decide eligibility to rebating the entire bill and/or you pay it back interest-free when your income gets high enough and its garnished from your wages.

gruez10• 4 years ago

We as a society should not be withdrawing basic rights from people (including heating, [...] and just keeping a fridge running)

But the installation of a load limiter (rather than cutting off power entirely) seems specifically designed as to not cause "withdrawing basic rights"?

nonrandomstring• 4 years ago

Per-household limiting is not necessarily a bad technology. Especially if everyone gets one, they can create fairness. But beware misuse.

And it's nothing new. I saw them out in Portugal. I stayed in a small town up in the southern mountains and everyone had 10kW cap. The reason was the limited pylon capacity. If everyone decided to use their oven and washing machine at the same time the lines would fry and the whole town would go out.

This emotionally charged article about the plight of a Canadian mother with kids raises many hostile responses about the power company because it's being used in an economically punitive way, which is wrong. Overall this sits well with American commentators who say "Fair play. You don't pay, you don't get". But that same attitude usually runs to "If you can pay you should be allowed more than your fair share".

Is that fair? So now I see similar logic playing out in California over water. Why should some commercial consumers get to use the lions share of the water while others have to watch every drop? In traditional language it's "rationing". But if we add some smart-metering technology, and some progressive marketing, then now additional factors than economic power can be used to set limits.

Where will this end up? I think that's what the article is really asking. There is an uneasy relation between technologies that ostensibly "save energy" and them being used to squeeze out more profit and enact more social control.

DerekL• 4 years ago

There's a typo in the post title: it should be “don't”.

Luker88• 4 years ago

I am Italian. Currently paying around 0.2€/kWh (after all taxes and everything)

Every house has a load limiter to 3KW. Anyone can ask an upgrade to 4.5KW, does not cost much and the price per kWh remains the same. I know exactly one person who has the upgrade (and does not even use it anymore).

The limiter will let you go over limit for about a minute, then will stop, and you just have to go and flip the switch up again.

That's how it has always been here. No big deal. You have to pay attention if you want quick heating on the furnace and kettle or laundry, yes. No big deal, almost everyone runs the laundry at night, the furnace and kettle can run together if you don't use the quick heating feature. Some microwaves at full power can get close to the limit by themselves.

We don't really use electric heating though (which is a big difference), and if you leave in apartments, each apartment must have its own counter. We all have 240v only.

The counter automatically reports the usage to the company, the new counters can be used as entry point for fiber optic internet (still largely unused though), I think it's difficult to find new contracts with activation costs.

The big question is what is the limit, and the article says nothing on that.

I am unsure but I think that here there can not be different contracts other than 3, 4.5kw (or more, but only for business).

I think it's also very illegal to give different contracts depending on past paying history(which can not even be made available to any company), and our market has opened completely (used to have a single company) and you can not be limited to a single company (because they put down the cables for example).

You can get disconnected for not paying, but I don't know the details and I don't think it's that easy either.

All in all, we seem to pay more, but without hidden costs, and a lot more safeguards.

Scoundreller4• 4 years ago

I'll assume you use natural gas for cooking and hot water. They're not too common in Canada. Maybe a big more common in Alberta (lots of fossil fuel extraction), but still, less common than Europe.

Possibly with what's going on in Russia, Europe will move away from being gas-first.

Electric space heating is exceedingly rare, unless you're really in the middle of nowhere off the natural gas network. and somehow can't/don't want to deal with propane or heating oil.

tlavoie2• 4 years ago

I'm in Canada, and have electric heat. We've added a heat pump, being in a more temperate climate, but originally all the primary heat was electric baseboards with simple resistance heating. The baseboards still supplement the heat pump for rooms that we want warmer for example. Our stove is propane, but still needs electricity to run the oven's panel and glow plug igniter.

We're in an area (island) without a gas pipeline, so the choices are electric, propane (portable tanks or delivered), or wood stoves. Space heating and hot water are definitely the largest hits to the hydro bill, but we'd be in a tough spot if the power tripped off completely for every transient load over the average.

tlavoie2• 4 years ago

Please forgive my ignorance, but is there a reason that this limiter acts like a circuit breaker, cutting the power until reset, instead of not being able to deliver over the given threshold? Say, having the lights dim when adding that one extra appliance, instead of the world suddenly going dark.

Nextgrid• 4 years ago

It could damage some appliances - motors for example could stop turning and just start heating up if they don’t get the full voltage.

Why doesn’t it just reset automatically (at least a couple times before tripping permanently) would be my question?

Calgarians detail life with an electricity load limiter

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