Python 2.7 removed from macOS Monterey 12.3 beta

https://derflounder.wordpress.com/2022/01/27/python-2-7-removed-from-macos-monterey-12-3-beta/

by zdw • 4 years ago

44 34 4 years ago

derflounder.wordpress.com

Calling it a “deprecation” when it’s been removed entirely seems like a misuse of the word.

torstenvl• 4 years ago

From the release notes: "Python Deprecations: Python 2.7 was removed from macOS in this update. Developers should use Python 3 or an alternative language instead. (39795874)"

What word, exactly, is being used dishonestly? Python 2 was removed from the default install because it is deprecated in favor of Python 3. There is nothing dishonest or unclear about that in the release notes. What word in that message do you regard as being "misused" in context?

rzz3• 4 years ago

Bye

upbeat_general5• 4 years ago

These breaking changes are why macOS is becoming more and more frustrating to use. It’s pushed me away from Mac on the desktop but I’m still using a MacBook.

I’ve run into so many issues trying to compile projects, those with little to no maintenance, and even many popular ones. If macOS support is advertised, it often only works on 2-3 generations prior to the current release. Ubuntu LTS works out of the box far more often.

The fact that it was removed without justification (just “legacy”) and there’s no easy download tool (like there is for say rosetta) is very frustrating. Sure I can compile python2 myself, install w/macports and symlink, but I shouldn’t have to.

_aavaa_3• 4 years ago

Python 3.0 came out in 2008, python 2.7 was supposed to reach end of life in 2015, it was extended until 2020.

It's now 2022.

That's all the justification they need.

waste_monk2• 4 years ago

I find it amazing the lengths python 2 loyalists take to keep using it, and the ferocity when it was EOL'd (the second time).

I wonder how many people are still actively using it (not counting situations such as when OS ships with Python2 and upgrading will break important utilities)?

makecheck2• 4 years ago

In a way, sure; but shouldn’t this have been a “macOS 11.0” or “macOS 12.0” change?

Slipping it into some minor update that many users will install without a second thought is not a reasonable thing. It could break software that people use, not realizing they depend on Python to use it.

alar442• 4 years ago

Removing a sunsetted, deprecated language is hardly a breaking change. If you're going to use old stuff the onus is on you to do whatever crazy workarounds are needed. Python 3 came out almost 15 years ago.

mkj• 4 years ago

"15 years ago" is a silly number, it wasn't usable then. Maybe 6 years ago when python 3.5 was released is a better comparison?

I agree with them getting rid of python2 though.

tadfisher• 4 years ago

Ubuntu LTS removed Python 2.7 from the default install in 18.04, almost four years ago.

josephcsible• 4 years ago

As someone who hates Apple, I don't see anything wrong with this. How many more major OS versions did you want them to keep supplying an EOL version of Python for?

bastawhiz• 4 years ago

Seriously: what operating systems even still ship with Python 2.7? It's wild to expect Apple to make their default shipped version one from fifteen years ago. It's trivial to install Homebrew if you really need it, and this is something you'll do exactly one time. Python has shipped ten major versions since 2.7, you can't expect Apple to simply never upgrade what they're including by default.

upbeat_general5• 4 years ago

Actually python2 has been removed from homebrew (it's possible to still install, you just need a custom tap I believe).

acranox• 4 years ago

I think CentOS 7 still does.

oblvious-earth• 4 years ago

Python 2.7 was released on 2010-07-03, the next Python major release after that was Python 3.2 on 2011-02-20, therefore there have been *nine* major releases since Python 2.7: 3.2 to 3.10.

Also since Python 2.7 was made EoL there have been 2 major releases: 3.9 and 3.10.

It's interesting MacOS will be the only desktop OS used by a significant number of people to type "python" in to the command line after a fresh install and get back an unknown command error.

WesolyKubeczek2• 4 years ago

I thought it’s a common wisdom that you don’t use the system interpreter, be it Perl or Python or whatever: it’s usually too old, incomplete, as is there to serve the OS’s own tooling and not you. The most you can use it for is the simplest of scripts or to bootstrap the real thing.

Apple says in the future you shouldn’t even rely on any scripting runtimes being there by default at all.

upbeat_general5• 4 years ago

I personally don't rely on system versions but lots of people do and that code makes its way everywhere. It's handy to be able to write higher-level code without installing a separate runtime or ensuring it's there...

SOLAR_FIELDS• 4 years ago

All true. It still doesn’t make it any less infuriating with someone marginally familiar with Python on MacOS being utterly flummoxed when they just type python myscript.py and expect it to either work or give them a comprehensible error message to install the right version. Sure, virtual environments, you say, but I guarantee you that people who aren’t using python as their daily professional driver probably aren’t using venv. So for these users getting rid of the system default old version is a good thing. Personally I wouldn’t remind relying on system installed python in MacOS if it was 3+ for many cases. I’m not using bleeding edge features in 90% of use cases so if I’m just trying to dash off a quick script that I expect to just work outside of a container (lots of personal automation ends up feeling like using containers is total overkill) I’ll use the system interpreter. If I’m doing a big boy work project I’ll use venv.

razodactyl2• 4 years ago

This absolutely.

Trying to keep clueless developers happy by hoarding unused tooling is a step in the wrong direction and leads to expected hand-holding.

razodactyl2• 4 years ago

Years ago Java would auto-install only when needed but in the case of a language version deprecated ages ago it seems like you’re complaining for the sake of wanting to complain. Install brew and get the old version if you really need it.

Python 2.7 removed from macOS Monterey 12.3 beta

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