Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-business-joe-manchin-congress-e7a0ca4c25c686e91cb21e166c44821b

by discocrisco • 5 years ago

24 86 5 years ago

apnews.com

DennisAleynikov6• 5 years ago

Manchin demonstrating once again that we do live in a democracy, at least a representative one.

thghtihadanacct7• 5 years ago

... And its clear who Manchin represents

DennisAleynikov6• 5 years ago

his voter base.

indeed, very obvious

astrange• 5 years ago

He represents his voters. Leftists (despite being right about BBB being good) never seem to realize that other people literally disagree with them and don't want BBB. They don't believe it would be good for them, nor do they care.

I still think something with the name will pass though.

syki9• 5 years ago

Democratic senators represent 40 million more people than Republican senators and their agenda can't be passed. The last time Republican senators represented more than half the population was 1996. Rural, low population states have far too much power in the present system. This is not sustainable.

I know Manchin is nominally a Democrat but it's not him that is blocking the legislation it is him and all 50 Republican senators (Sinema from Arizona).

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/02/gop-senators-havent-...

DennisAleynikov6• 5 years ago

population density isn't how our legislature is set up. not sure why people always bring this incredibly irrelevant statistic up.

vanviegen3• 5 years ago

'incredibly irrelevant'? Wow...

solarhoma• 5 years ago

There is a push to water down rural votes (typically conservative) as democrats feel they are not represented fairly among the senate. Arguing that Wyoming should not have the same power in the senate that California has with many more people. The US government was not set up as a pure democracy but rather a republic. They forget the founding fathers did this to prevent a tyranny by majority. The ones arguing for abolishing this process are ok with tyranny by majority rule only because they find themselves in the majority. But too quickly forget that one day they will likely find themselves in the minority. Wishing they had these protections back.

rafale3• 5 years ago

The US is a republic, not a democracy. And for good reasons. Otherwise, politicians will try to one-up each other with promises of freebies. It's easy to win elections when you promise free healthcare, free education, free childcare,... The average person will vote in their immediate interest and not worry about the big picture. The big picture: nothing is free.

thghtihadanacct7• 5 years ago

I dont remember seeing the word 'free' in the posted article anywhere related to the paying for this bill. In fact, it clearly states the cost will come from taxes on the wealthy ... whom Manchin represents.

synergy202• 5 years ago

Exactly right. "Rural, low population states have far too much power in the present system. This is not sustainable" is wrong in that, pure democracy leads to pure majority rule, which causes stability issues in no time, history tells a lot of those stories.

Ekaros5• 5 years ago

It is democracy, but it also federal republic. Important qualifier is the federal. There are also lot of non-federal republics.

kergonath8• 5 years ago

The US is a republic, not a democracy.

This pops up every now and then and is complete bullshit. A republic is a system of government with a parliament and an elected head of state. Being a republic and being a democracy are completely unrelated. There are republics that are oligarchies, dictatorships, or democracies. Similarly, there are monarchies that are oligarchies, dictatorships, or democracies.

You can discuss about legitimacy and the fact that the US is a federation of states instead of a government of citizens, but “it’s a republic not a democracy” is stupid. Using it as a way of justifying blatant undemocratic aspects of the way the US work is doubly so.

defaultname• 5 years ago

The US is a democratic republic. Canada, the UK and a number of others are parliamentary democracy.

They are ALL democracies, and I'm unaware of a single country on the planet that is a pure democracy. All are representative in some way.

This bizarre "not a democracy" (for the oldest ongoing democracy) is not based in reality at all, but someone read it somewhere and just mindlessly repeats it.

It's easy to win elections when you promise free healthcare, free education, free childcare,... The average person will vote in their immediate interest and not worry about the big picture

In reality the "average person" votes against their own interest -- both short and long term -- at virtually every turn.

I feel like I've been trolled.

kgwxd• 5 years ago

Nothing is free

That's what taxes are supposed to be for. What's the different if I pay 10k a year to an insurance company or the government for my family to have affordable access to healthcare? With the current system, I'm not even getting that, my entire family has never exceeded our crazy high deductibles. We have some form of control over who gets to run our government programs, no matter how small that form of control is, it's better than the zero control we have over the practices of private companies or the terrible choices private companies make about what insurance we get to even have in the first place.

phkahler• 5 years ago

> Democratic senators represent 40 million more people than Republican senators and their agenda can't be passed. The last time Republican senators represented more than half the population was 1996. Rural, low population states have far too much power in the present system. This is not sustainable.

Spending insane amounts of money like that is not sustainable. We are already looking at greater than 10 percent annual inflation and trillions of federal debt. Guess who owes that debt back? We do. People need to stop seeing the government as some kind of external magical entity that can grant gifts to whomever it wants if only it had cooperation from [my]party.

thghtihadanacct7• 5 years ago

This bill looks like its trying to give some of it back too. One of the few times a big bill like this goes to us rather than war, bank bail outs, or propping up some other country.

syki9• 5 years ago

In a system that nominally purports to represent the will of the people it is not relevant that you are opposed to the spending. You are not the dictator of the country. The will of the majority is being thwarted consistently by a minority. This is not a sustainable way to run a representative form of government.

cm2187• 5 years ago

The point of having two chambers is that they are selected in a different way, otherwise you might as well have only one. The senate is a way for smaller states to not be in a permanent structural minority and have no say on the direction of the country. Many countries have a similar system.

Also even the house is not a proportional system. I know some people like proportional systems but let’s keep in mind they often come with political instability.

errcorrectcode3• 5 years ago

Gerrymandering is completely out of control. Mostly R's are locking-in their wins for the foreseeable future.

I don't think it's a D/R thing in particular. He's completely corrupt by WV coal and other corporate interests paying him to be an insurgent DINO to do their bidding. Sinema is clearly a nutter and possibly corrupt too. The D's and R's also contain too many corrupt, plutocrat sycophants to name individually here. The system is what's broken, and it's doubtful it can be fixed from within.

maxerickson• 5 years ago

Senate isn't gerrymandered.

leereeves• 5 years ago

He's completely corrupt by WV coal and other corporate interests

Or is he just representing the interests of the people of WV, as he is supposed to? Remember, his job is to represent WV, not to fall in line with Democrat party policy.

And according to a poll in November: "Nearly 74 percent of [West Virginia] voters also said Manchin should oppose the president’s Build Back Better plan."

https://wvmetronews.com/2021/11/15/wv-voters-slam-biden-appr...

mozman• 5 years ago

I am an independent and I do not support this bill. Can we please not make it sound so black and white?

Republicans aren’t evil, and neither are democrats. Both groups exist and have the right to fight for their agendas. Accept it.

syki9• 5 years ago

I have not painted anyone as evil. I suggest you reread what I wrote and take it at face value. It appears to me that you are projecting and making some assumptions about my views that aren’t supported by anything that I wrote. My post is about imbalances in the present system. It is my view and contention that the current federal system for apportioning senators and representatives is not sustainable. Everyone is free to advocate/fight for what they believe. I’ve not suggested otherwise. A system in which a minority viewpoint regularly impedes the legislative spending agenda of the majority is not sustainable long term. There is a power imbalance. The problem of this imbalance will exacerbate largely along rural/urban lines until something gives.

yucky• 5 years ago

Is it possible that the people those Senators (including Manchin) represent, aren't interested in a "New Deal" style bill that nobody fully understands?

kcplate2• 5 years ago

Democratic senators represent 40 million more people than Republican senators and their agenda can't be passed.

Sorry, but it needs to be said that this is a fundamental misunderstanding of who the senate represents. The senate represents the states, not the people. That is why there are only 2 per state. The house represents the people and is proportional to the population.

syki9• 5 years ago

There is no misunderstanding on my part. I’m pointing out why I think the current system is not sustainable. I’m complaining about the setup of the current system. Since the abandonment of state legislatures appointing senators I think it’s common to say senators represent the people of the state that elected them.

The House is not proportional to population since each state gets one member of the House regardless of population size. One Representative from California represents around 745,000 people and this number is greater than the population of 6 states.

pandaman• 5 years ago

This would be a tragedy if the majority of people wanted some laws for themselves but were held back by the minority from implementing them. Luckily, this is not the case in the US, which is a federation: if the majority of e.g. Californians want some laws for themselves then they can just make them the laws of California. The consequences of that is that if e.g. Texans want some laws for California then they need to convince the majority of the states too, which is not easy and that is by design.

marricks• 5 years ago

It’s funny because he argued for a year saying he would if he got A, gets it, then says he needs B… on and on until like L then when its finally in front of him to vote he acts like he never could anyways. People like this are the skeeziest.

Then again, there seems to always need to be 1 democrat who will stand in the way of getting things done everyday people want. It was Joe Lieberman when democrats last had the senate. Who knows what the senate leaders would actually allow to happen but it’s easier to have all that hate on one Joe.

votepaunchy2• 5 years ago

Manchin and Schumer signed an agreement on July 28, which the Congressional Democrats completely ignored.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/09/30/manchin-proposed-15...

xqcgrek2• 5 years ago

Joe Manchin is taking the hit for a lot of other Democrats would would vote against this insane irresponsible bill, but can't let their intensions be publicly known.

It was a foregone conclusion this bill would fail in this way once it was split up from the real infrastructure bill.

tacosbane2• 5 years ago

The Democrats have 49 seats in the Senate! They should be able to do whatever they want!

votepaunchy2• 5 years ago

There are 48 Democratic Party senators and 50 in their caucus.

tacosbane2• 5 years ago

Oh well that's different...

Sen. Joe Manchin says no to $2T bill: ‘I can’t vote for it’

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