Interpersonal Traits of Aspies Placed in Context (2014)

https://gist.github.com/stared/00ce50e95f9bcecc8965feb04650c19d

by stared • 5 years ago

52 37 5 years ago

gist.github.com

I've noticed all of these things in myself. I consciously reduced half of them and very deliberately kept or even amplified the rest!

causi• 5 years ago

As an aspie myself, quite a few of these are accurate, but a number of them are just plain apologism. For example, Empathy (and pragmatism!) allows face-saving, but from an informational point-of-view, it contaminates the database and aspies are more dedicated to keeping the record clear and accurate. If you are an aspie or are good friends with one, you know this is in no way a dedication to objectivity, because it ends at our own skin. We are not good at accepting criticism, especially valid and accurate criticism. We feel humiliation very, oftentimes unreasonably, strongly.

Being different from most people does not mean all our differences are disabilities, but at the same time it also doesn't mean none of them are. Stop romanticizing it and recognize that explanations are not excuses for being an asshole. We are not tragically misunderstood ubermensch and the world would not be a better place if everyone was like us.

tome• 5 years ago

Hmm, are you sure you're not making an ironic meta-error here? It seem like the author is allowing "aspies"[1] to save face by saying their behaviour is well-intentioned i.e. "dedicated to keeping the record clear and accurate", but not actually excusing that behaviour.

And taking into account what you wrote about criticism, I hope this doesn't come across too harshly.

[1] I'm not completely sure how acceptable it is to use this particular term

FeepingCreature2• 5 years ago

There's a thing that shows up with animals, where the most vicious, aggressive species tend to be the ones with poor eyesight, because they can't tell harmless movement from threatening movement, so they have to treat everything as a threat and attack "back" preemptively.

I think something similar is going on with aspies and criticism, where poor social judgment forces them to treat every criticism as an attempt to attack their social standing.

Though also, disagreement with feedback can look like inability to accept criticism when people aren't actually looking for acceptance but submission. Call it 50/50.

edit: oh I read the article and it refers to criticism of others by the aspie. Nevermind then!

loriverkutya• 5 years ago

We are not good at accepting criticism, especially valid and accurate criticism. We feel humiliation very, oftentimes unreasonably, strongly.

I'm not sure why you are using plural, as autism manifests in various different forms and traits are not universal. I know a few people on the spectrum, who are pretty good with criticism and does not feel humiliation the way, you described it. So please don't do it as autism is spectrum and people on the spectrum can be very different. Using plural form leads to stereotyping and however it seems society would prefer to put "aspies" in a box, most of the people sticking out from the box left and right. (My favourite example is one of my excollegue, who is an extrovert aspie)

ukj• 5 years ago

We are not good at accepting criticism, especially valid and accurate criticism.

That's not quite how I would characterise it. I am not particularly good at accepting valid and accurate criticism if nothing actionable follows from the critique.

Thanks for the information. I already know all that you've told me about myself. I just don't know how to fix it (and I've tried a bunch of things that you are likely to recommend next).

Said differently: I have no tactful way of telling you that your feedback is worthless.

howmayiannoyyou• 5 years ago

It is often different in women. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/autism-it-s-diffe...

CipherThrowaway3• 5 years ago

OP I know you have put effort into organizing and collating this content but I need to be frank with you. This guy is a crackpot passing off his personal speculation and extrapolation as fact and the content here is on the same level as autism mommy blogs. The content perpetuates many stereotypes and was clearly not written with any level of empathy for autistic people.

A better model for autistic people to understand their interpersonal problems is Milton's "double empathy problem." You can read more here: https://doi.org/10.1044/leader.FTR2.25042020.58

selfhoster113• 5 years ago

You may think that, but these notes basically explain everything I've been missing for years from my own "Unwritten Handbook of Social Interactions".

CipherThrowaway3• 5 years ago

IMO this is what makes it dangerous. Content like this gains currency by providing simplistic but "useful" models for common situations. But it packages them up with a worldview or ontology that isn't so great.

FeepingCreature2• 5 years ago

Which parts in specific would you say are wrong?

js82• 5 years ago

Likewise the other commenter, I really do find the list enlightening. Do you have a specific criticism of the things in the list?

(I am not an aspie myself, but I have a coworker, who is most likely an aspie, as I suspected for several years, and many of the observations from the list do seem to be spot on. And he just threw a tantrum yesterday, because they closed our office again due to COVID, and he really doesn't like working from home, unlike most people. The "parallel play" explanation does really make lot of sense about why he feels that way.)

CipherThrowaway3• 5 years ago

The issue is broader than one or two specific criticisms. It's the attitude and worldview behind the text is the problem. The author leans heavily into stereotypes and treats autistic people as a separate species with uniform deficiencies rather than individual people.

This comment does a good job of explaining it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29359903

Re: your coworker. Diagnosing someone with autism and trying to fit them into a stereotype you have in your head is not a real understanding of anything. Autistic people have complex individual preferences just like non-autistic people. The best way to understand people is to approach them as individuals rather than reaching for cheap generalizations.

m_fayer• 5 years ago

There's plenty of autism in my family, I've read plenty on it, have plenty of personal experience, and plenty of empathy for autistic people. That said, most of this list hits home, and not just in a surface-way.

pfooti2• 5 years ago

As an autistic person myself, but by no means an expert, I can say a few things. Adding here because there are at least two replies to parent that are the same "well, it seems like a useful list" at time of reply composition.

First: Asperger's syndrome is not actually a recognized diagnosis anymore. It's all just autism and autism spectrum disorder. That's in part because we've recognized that it is all part of the same spectrum, and probably at least in part because Asperger was a Nazi. More about both points here: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05112-1

Second, while some of the notes in the gist align with my own personal, lived experience, the vibe of lacking empathy absolutely does not. The Leader article cited in the parent comment aligns better with my own experience at least.

Third, that list is absolutely just a random box of facile observations. Note a particular thing about one particular autistic person, and try to coerce it into aligning with a mental model that you think must be true of all autistic people, with no particular actual supporting evidence.

If you're interested in what it is like to be autistic in an informal way, I recommend trying to get your hands on a copy of "Sensory: Life on the Spectrum" https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/schnumn/sensory-life-on... as it is a good, crowd sourced book about all the different ways autism works. If you want a deeper, more scientific analysis of autism, there's plenty of peer reviewed literature out there. But the linked gist in OP is neither (a) peer reviewed literature nor (b) reflective of autistic experience in general at least.

Finally, while some folks self-identity as "aspie", I would find it _extremely_ offensive if anyone used that word to refer to me or anyone else without express permission. Just say "autistic person".

stared3• 5 years ago

Asperger's syndrome is not actually a recognized diagnosis anymore

True, but it is a recent change. At the time of writing (2014), it was a common term; it still has a Wikipedia page. Just because it uses one word or another, it does not make an article valid or invalid. (I am happy to redefine Asperger/HFA as Xvvbhj for the sake of a discussion.)

I fully agree that there is no meaningful difference between Asperger Syndrome and High Functioning Autism.

Asperger was a Nazi

Cancel culture at its best. Von Braun was a Nazi. Haber was a Nazi-sympathizer (putting himself in a difficult spot, since he was Jewish) and a horrible person in general. And?

absolutely just a random box of facile observations.

Well, not. While most people don't hit all checkboxes, these points are very far from random. Happy to bet $100 that there is a statistical difference between autistic and neurotypical.

"Sensory: Life on the Spectrum"

I don't know this one.

Finally, while some folks self-identity as "aspie", I would find it _extremely_ offensive if anyone used that word to refer to me or anyone else without express permission.

I find this bizarre. And at least to me (I am autistic), very antithetical to autism. Things are true or not REGARDLESS who says them. I use the term "Aspie" and am equally OK with others referring to me that way.

fallingknife• 5 years ago

I don't see how this article is a better model, or even how it contradicts anything in the OP. You have just stated this without evidence, or even an argument.

stared3• 5 years ago

I disagree.

As someone on the autism spectrum and who read A LOT about high-functioning autism (including recent research papers, books, commentaries, discussions in autism communities), I still found a lot of helpful material in this article. Moreover, thanks to that, it helped me a lot with one of my relationships (with a geeky but non-autistic person).

clearly not written with any level of empathy for autistic people

I find this statement bizarre. And yes, there are tons of materials without empathy towards autistic people. This one isn't.

selfhoster113• 5 years ago

I wish I'd found this years ago. It may not be accurate, but it's hell of a lot better than literally not knowing all of these things about social interaction.

hzay• 5 years ago

I don't think I was born as an aspie, but I developed a large number of these traits in my late teenage/early 20s by consciously adopting a black-and-white approach towards truth and reality, and a consequent value system.

My profession rewarded some of these traits at first. Later in my mid twenties, I switched into performing arts and over a period of 7 years, I have been able to reverse many of these patterns of behavior because they were coming in my way (and now my old friends barely recognize me duh).

Is there any research on attempts to change these traits in someone who is diagnosed to be on the spectrum?

I don't mean to suggest these traits are inherently good or bad. For me, personality change was like pulling teeth, day after day. But I did it purely to learn a new field, not because I was previously "wrong". I'm curious about any attempt at changing personality, in any direction, because it's so deeply educational.

domlebo70• 5 years ago

This is quite interesting. Are you able to share any more info about your journey?

earthbee• 5 years ago

It seems partially accurate but also very stereotypical and some points are flat out wrong, I've met enough fellow aspies to have seen a lot of diversity in how we behave. And even in myself many of the problems on this list I became aware of decades ago, have worked on and are no longer a significant problem.

rcthompson• 5 years ago

Yeah, this list is quite hit-or-miss, and seems to be more miss than hit the farther down you go. It doesn't help that many of these are phrased in absolutes (e.g. "all aspies hate X", "aspies always prefer Y").

dmor• 5 years ago

Interesting list, though I’m not clear why this author is credible. Did I miss something there (the linked PDF lacks any research citations or bibliography)? Regardless, I hope this topic being high ranking on HN will help some people who might be coming across this info for the first time.

I know HN has a predominately male audience, so it might be useful for readers to know that Autism spectrum behaviors have been shown through research to present pretty differently in women. This list didn’t touch much on romantic and sexual aspects of interpersonal dynamics. Learning about this has helped me understand myself better and support other women on the spectrum more graciously https://www.aane.org/women-asperger-profiles/

It has made me curious about my own mother, and also the developmental journey kids of my friends on the spectrum. I hope this will add to the conversation.

agumonkey2• 5 years ago

Methinks the first items are missing the point.

All the body language, eye contact etc are lab analysis. I'd bet a few dollars that even very autistic people will get this (after all many are very very intelligent) if could look at a broader panel of emotions in other people and how interacting with each others is kind of a dance act.

If you go too much into your own head while speaking to someone you will forget the other and miss the so called body language cues. The cues are not the point, getting carried away on one's own little narrative is. If you try to see talking as a simple fun exchange, to share things and keep a bit on the same track, together.

Maybe autistic people have the logical pursuit as the only mode of pleasure and have this reflex to exchange with other similarly-minded people (you teach me something new, I teach you something new) but most people just want to share simpler things and find fun, safety to an extent.

My 2 cents

bitwize• 5 years ago

Logical pursuit is not the only mode of pleasure for us, but it is one of the most profound. It's like starting with a single brick and building a castle, and we want to show our friends the castle and, even more impressively, how we went from single brick to castle. Sharing the pleasure of appreciating this sort of thing is a basis for deep friendship. Just "being there", going to parties or watching football games or whatever it is normies do with their friends -- it's something some of us can do, but it does not forge such deep or strong bonds for us.

agumonkey2• 5 years ago

I understand, I probably have some autistic traits. But you gotta understand how other people operate, and not converge only to the restricted group that resonates to your own tune. That said, as I tried to hint above, it's a bidirectional thing, you're under no obligation to enjoy what others do. To them these events are sometimes profound (you may have jumped of joy watching a sporting event, or enjoyed a good group laughter some nights) too. It's just different. Oh and the normies might also like deep intellectual enlightenment too, the IQ is just distributed on the gaussian, some need the right context and pedagogy.

dekhn2• 5 years ago

I'm aspie and I eventually learned to treat my condition by being "an alien sociologist studying humans with the goal of emulating them well enough to pass as one". For most of these topics, I've leearned to recognize them from "features" (why yes, I work in machine learning...) and found what behaviors seem to make people happier or unhappier, and adjusted my behavior accordingly.

It hasn't been easy. I can't really recommend it. I had to do it because at the time (when rain man came out), people didn't really understand that there are people with far milder forms of autism who learn to cope (at some amount of personal strain).

Many years after high school, my ex-girlfriend said something to me that enlightened me greatly. "That one time when we were sitting together listening to music, why didn't you make a move? In retrospect, I should have initiated". I never ever initiated anything with a woman because, to be honest, I hate rejection, and I can't tell flirting from actual interest. Over the years I've learned women's signs that they want a man to make a move but I also wish society would just switch over to "anybody can initiate".

text70• 5 years ago

sudo systemctl start anybody_can_initiate.service

Interpersonal Traits of Aspies Placed in Context (2014)

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