In wake of riots, British PM proposes social media ban

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/social.media/08/11/london.riots.social.media/index.html

by ojbyrne • 15 years ago

156 128 15 years ago

zeteo3• 15 years ago

> when people are using social media for violence, we need to stop them.

Is this the same Cameron who criticized Libya when they shut off the Internet against what, in their view, were violent protesters?

sliverstorm4• 15 years ago

They seem like different issues. I don't think the Libyan protestors were looting, burning, attacking & robbing bystanders... In other words, in Libya they had protestors, in the UK they have rioters and mobs. I could have the wrong impression; I live in neither Libya nor the UK.

There were also accusations that Libya shut off the internet to mask actions of their armed forces against the protestors. Once again, seems like a different beast.

doctoboggan• 15 years ago

But the fear is that given that power, the government will be able to make subjective calls on situations they deem important enough to intervene. There is definitely a line between justified Libyan protests and the violent riots here, but where does that line fall? Do you trust the government to make that call today and (once it's law) forever into the future?

It's a tough question, I know I don't know the answer.

michaelchisari• 15 years ago

in Libya they had protestors, in the UK they have rioters and mobs

In Libya, they also had rioters and mobs, and in the UK, they also have protestors.

jsrampton• 15 years ago

I think shutting down people and social media in places that are looting, stealing, and making the world a worse place... I agree with that. I disagree on taking down social media when it's an organized legal matter. It's hard to make the distinction and not allow the couple people that ruin it for everyone else.

MrScruff2• 15 years ago

Not that I agree with Cameron, but here are some differences.

- Protesting is legal in the UK and happens regularly without undue interference by the police.

- The riots in the UK mainly consisted of crimes committed against citizens so they were clearly a policing issue.

- They're not proposing shutting of the internet, just the principal vectors used to organise riots.

- The rioters were not subject to a violent response by the authorities. It would have been straight forward to use rubber bullets against rioters but the police were not keen to escalate things.

lwhi2• 15 years ago

Use of rubber bullets was authorised after the police finally got their act together. I don't think it was a worthy desire to avoid escalation that prevented their use earlier on .. more lack of organisation.

The main question is, how will our government discover whether a citizen is communicating about a forbidden subject? I suppose all communication will need to be explicitly monitored. This is another step closer towards distopia.

radu_floricica• 15 years ago

That's a difference of degree, and not even that relevant. Either you have freedom of speech, or you don't.

Let's take your arguments and rephrase them as coming from Libya (or any "less democratic" country):

- Protesting is legal in XXX and happens regularly. You only have to get a permit to insure the safety of the people involved (same as in UK, I'd guess)

- The protesters are clearly destroying public and private property. There have been multiple instances of protesters attacking public buildings, and a (very well filmed) instance of protesters attacking innocent bystanders.

- Of course the internet will not be completely shut down. Only specific vectors, as needed. The police will decide what they are and how many to shut down

- The police only protects public property, and will always use violence as a last resort, and only as a response to violence - and we have clearly documented cases of violence from protesters.

So what's the difference? When it comes to laws meant to limit the power of the government, you can't count on the government applying them "in spirit" or reporting things truthfully and completely. It kindof defeats the purpose, doesn't it? If the people currently in charge would be trustworthy, you wouldn't really need any such laws...

andylei2• 15 years ago

i don't agree with Cameron, but CNN's headline is a bit sensationalist.

> "to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality."

he's not saying facebook and twitter should be banned, just that it should be monitored (and potentially block users). again, i disagree with Cameron, but its hardly the same as a ban on social media.

mattdeboard2• 15 years ago

Monitoring is far worse than banning.

ig13• 15 years ago

Twitter's a public medium, I don't really see how anyone could object to a government monitoring it, given any individual could do the same thing.

lukejduncan• 15 years ago

It's no different than requiring licenses for printing presses. It's not that printing presses are being banned, just unpopular speech...

Natsu• 15 years ago

I don't believe that they can "stop people communicating via these websites" in any sensible manner. They could use other websites, phones, or in-person meetings, not to mention countless other alternatives. The headline may be a bit off, but the suggestion is still absurd.

This is just a politician trying to be seen "Doing Something" when he has no real solutions to offer. Embarrassing, really.

dendory• 15 years ago

To us, Libya protesters are freedom fighters, to the Libian government they are criminals.

No surprise that when the protests happen here, governments swap position right away.

estel3• 15 years ago

This is a slightly tired and broadly awful analogy. The rioters this week haven't shared the same motivations, determination or moral conviction of "rebel" (but now recognised) Libyan Government. If I were Libyan, this comparison would be frankly insulting.

zeteo3• 15 years ago

>The rioters this week haven't shared the same determination

Are you saying you'd have liked the rioters better if they didn't give up so "quickly"?

rflrob2• 15 years ago

Good points all around, but any government that wants to maintain it's rule will portray freedom fighters as unruly rioters. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they aren't, but giving the government the ability to restrict communication if it says they are is a dangerous precedent.

barrkel• 15 years ago

The biggest difference here is that you're on the other side.

forensic6• 15 years ago

How do you know this? I sure hope you aren't unquestioningly swallowing what the state run media tells you.

Have you talked to any rioters? Have you entered their homes and seen how they lived? Maybe if you got to know them you would think up some reasons why they would be angry and feel like burning and robbing.

Maybe those reasons would be something like recent austerity measures further condemning them and their children to a life of abject poverty in one of the richest places in the world.

Maybe those reasons would be lack of access to decent education, medicine, mental health services.

A democracy that is widely seen as unrepresentative and broken where social mobility has been declining for 40 years.

How about an utter lack of job prospects while a consumer culture bombards them with media that tells them they are worthless for being trapped in a cycle of poverty.

At a certain point your underclass realizes that their only hope of ever getting nice shoes (and by extension, respect from society) is by taking those shoes.

Cmon London, you are smarter than this. Are you TRYING to bring back Marxism? Or does the English upper class not fear the guillotine?

skky• 15 years ago

definition for protester: "dissenter: a person who dissents from some established policy."

definition for rioter: "troublemaker who participates in a violent disturbance of the peace; someone who rises up against the constituted authority."

VladRussian• 15 years ago

sounds like these were rioters http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part2/2h48b.html

slug• 15 years ago

I wouldn't consider these guys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo freedom fighters...

Vivtek• 15 years ago

Wow, and that worked so well in North Africa!

mrmaddog• 15 years ago

I am firmly against blocking any communication tool on the internet, though I am all for prosecuting those that incite violence and illegal activities should they be dumb enough to use a website that can be linked back to them.

rflrob2• 15 years ago

This is completely ignoring the potentially positive effects of social media during the riots. @metpoliceuk was helpful in spreading news and tamping down false rumors.

fexl• 15 years ago

Or this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14475741

(twitter tag #riotcleanup)

chailatte• 15 years ago

There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, think, and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillence coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well, certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.

josephcooney• 15 years ago

I love that movie. I've watched it every 5th of November for about the last 5 years.

dublinclontarf• 15 years ago

It really was the best Harry Potter.

kqr2• 15 years ago

From V for Vendetta (2006) :

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/quotes?qt=qt0450655

Joakal3• 15 years ago

It's sad how the British government is responding compared to Norway.

Norway: First) Provides support to anyone who needs it. Problem) Mentally unstable bomber/shooter. Solution) We'll continue supporting. Security will get reviewed but not that necessary to implement new laws.

Britain: First) Cut back support for bringing up people. Problem) Surprised people riot. Solution) Slam down authoritative fist. So far; 1) Increase police from 20,000 to 26,000. 2) Consider restricting internet further (This). They believe the cure is apparently better than the vaccine, better parenting and government assistance.

jdminhbg2• 15 years ago

I don't think censoring social media is a good idea or even remotely helpful, but these comparisons are beyond ridiculous. The Norwegian attacks were carried out by one person who is already in custody. The British riots arise out of amorphous groups of thousands of individuals who are still at large. They're completely, utterly different.

Joakal3• 15 years ago

It wasn't a comparison of problems, it was a comparison of solutions to serious problems.

Nurturing vs authoritarian.

GlennS• 15 years ago

You're comparing very different situations: in Norway, once the killer was arrested the risk of further damage was low. In the UK, there might be further riots.

If you are dealing with a crisis, I think you should do things more or less in this order, and I don't think we'll be ready to start on #4 for another day or two in the UK:

1) Don't make it any worse.

2) Prevent further damage from happening.

3) Clean up the existing damage.

4) Investigate ways to prevent a repeat occurrence, and implement if a good solution is found.

IvarTJ• 15 years ago

After the incident, Norwegian media has highlighted that the charged terrorist debated on web forums, including those where other participants expressed similar sentiments. Police has encouraged people to report cases of extreme language online.

csomar2• 15 years ago

If you have a good number of citizens that, when some instability happens, goes to the street and fire cars, houses and rub shops, you have a much more serious problem than 100million GBP in loses.

During the Tunisian revolution, the police was ordered to leave a 1 million citizen city that I'm living in after a tough day where the ruling party locals where burnt. Although without any security (and before people gather and create groups for protection), the city was relatively stable.

There was theft, but theft existed before that day. Also there wasn't that kind of violence in the thefts that happened. When I went to the center of the city the day after that, I saw no signs that a private property was abused.

awakeasleep• 15 years ago

I thought about this sort of thing. It almost seems like the underclasses in Britain are less civilized than the people of the countries that have had recent revolutions.

However, I also believe that the riots in Tunisia weren't limited to lower class people, and maybe involving a larger section of society in them caused them to be more civilized.

csomar2• 15 years ago

Religion and culture has an important effect in the society. I'm not religious myself, but not a great percentage of people can get enough culture to think in a civilized way. Religion is great because the rules are enforced by the religion and thus the religious person himself and not the state or police.

ahi• 15 years ago

British society, like American society, places consumerism above all else. Britain's "underclass" are reminded constantly that they must have consumer product A through Z to be happy and that they will never have them. The poor of Britain are far poorer when it comes to the things that matter in British culture than the poor of Tunisia on the scale of Tunisian culture. Just a thought.

cormullion3• 15 years ago

Everyone is starting to generalize wildly about 'Britain'. London + Birmingham is not the same as Britain. The problems of urban Britain are not the same as the problems of Britons outside the major cities. London has 13% of the population. As a member of the underclass in Britain, I resent being called uncivilized. Well, I would if I didn't have a sense of humour.

Now, where's my nearest Apple store.

Silhouette2• 15 years ago

I know half the Internet is going senationalist over this, but please go and actually watch the debate before the knee-jerking spoils this discussion as well.

The tone of the debate was actually quite reasonable, and many MPs, including the PM, were vocal about the benefits of social media during this whole sorry affair.

Sadly, a lot of people are reading things into it that weren't actually said and then turning them into senationalist headlines on sites like this where the liberal crowd upvote them without bothering to check any facts.

_delirium2• 15 years ago

> liberal crowd

I think when it comes to free-speech, as opposed to things like taxation or healthcare, there's not really a clear "liberal" contingent, just the amorphous civil-liberties contingent. Includes many libertarians, liberals, and anyone else who opposes the state exercising anything even remotely approaching censorship, in any circumstance, whether it's against "nazis" or "rioters" or "terrorists" or whomever else the emergency of the day is.

philwelch• 15 years ago

Americans are somewhat unique among English speaking people for not distinguishing between liberalism and leftism. Once you make that distinction, the "amorphous civil-liberties contingent" is liberal by definition.

The culture of internet outrage that involves upvoting these things to the roof does get in the way of understanding and addressing the issue in a reasonable fashion. I don't think it matters especially what specific worldview someone has when they're in that mindset.

zmmmmm• 15 years ago

> many MPs, including the PM, were vocal about the benefits of social media during this whole sorry affair

I find this sort of thing almost more disturbing. It implies that whether we should allow totalitarian measures merely depends on a judgement of case by case merit - oh look, social media had a good side that balanced out the bad side, let's not ban it. This time. So what if the authorities decide one day there is no good side? Or just that they don't like the good side that might exist?

This kind of statement sounds good but is actually an argument FOR censorship in disguise.

Silhouette2• 15 years ago

> It implies that whether we should allow totalitarian measures merely depends on a judgement of case by case merit

To some extent, all effective government is necessarily conducted based on case by case merit. Even what we think of as fundamental human rights can never truly be sacrosanct, for the simple reason that sometimes they conflict. One obvious recurring example in recent years has been the tension between security (right to life etc.) and secrecy (right to private life).

Should we protect some values more than others? Sure. Should some principles be considered too important for the administration of the day to legislate them away without going to the people explicitly first? Absolutely. Can you ever codify that in a reasonable way without allowing some degree of case-by-case judgement? I doubt it.

> So what if the authorities decide one day there is no good side?

Then you move onto the next of the four boxes of liberty. If lots of people agree with you, then one way or another, either the authorities will back down or they will be removed from power.

The more I think about these issues, the more I conclude that the law can only ever be an instrument of a civil society. If you reach the point where one significant group is not behaving in a civilised fashion and the rest cannot persuade them to do so through reason, then ultimately it rarely matters what the law says until that disagreement has been settled by force. On a small scale, that is called policing. On a large scale, it is called civil war.

If you accept that premise, then it only ever makes sense to balance the law favourably for the civil case, on the presumption that the legal system is operated in the interests of justice. If it is not in a few isolated cases, you treat the deviants as criminals themselves and you provide an appeals mechanism for those who have been treated unfairly. If it is not on a larger scale, then the law doesn't really matter anyway, because your only recourse is to bring down the system and build a new one. You can do that by voting out the government, through civil disobedience that puts unbearable pressure on the system, or on a more fundamental level as we've seen in several former dictatorships over the past year.

Naga• 15 years ago

ored

linuxhansl• 15 years ago

Right that's the solution.

When there's civil unrest, why try to fix the problem that caused it when you can just stop people from organizing the unrest?

dasil003• 15 years ago

The mere suggestion of this is proof of how impotent the government really is. How do they really think it would help? Shutting down this channel or that channel is meaningless in the age of easy communication. Unless they shut off the internet and cell phone networks entirely it will have little effect. Pathetic really.

scrrr• 15 years ago

Think about it. This makes sense.

People who are in power of course are threatened by new, fast ways to share information just as much as established businesses are threatened by ecommerce-sites like Amazon. This threat is real and the danger is justified.

Recent uprisings in Libya, Syria etc. put fear in the hearts of western politicians, too. Rightfully so. The world must and will change as a consequence. I think in more profound ways than we can predict yet.

Of course they don't react rationally because they don't understand it. They also make the mistake that the voters actually would like a social media ban. Of course they don't.

GeneralMaximus• 15 years ago

No no no. You're doing it wrong. What you need to do is ban socket() on all computers everywhere. That's the only way to fix this problem.

jwr2• 15 years ago

"free flow of information can sometimes be a problem" — I never thought I'd hear these words from a British PM.

bradgessler• 15 years ago

Yeah, wow, I'm dumbfounded.

If the British government follows through with this, the rioters will actually have a new reason to riot: freedom of speech.

estel3• 15 years ago

I don't see how it's controversial to say that the "free flow of information can sometimes be a problem"?

Obviously this freedom can cause problems for some at times; but this is a price we pay for a free and open society.

liedra3• 15 years ago

Not that I agree with the knee-jerk reaction put forward by Cameron, but actually, protesters will protest. There's a big difference between rioting and protesting, and it's important to make that clear.

lhnz2• 15 years ago

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. That is the one thing which would make me get off my armchair.

Tichy• 15 years ago

I think it is really people that is the problem. People should be banned.

epaga• 15 years ago

Best comment I saw regarding this was on Twitter: "Urban rioting existed before SMS/social media. You know what didn't? Large-scale community cleanups, spontaneously organized within hours."

petercooper4• 15 years ago

How did the riots spread to so many disparate areas? Copycat activity based on seeing riots occur on TV. So, sure, turn off Twitter and Facebook for a while, but be sure to turn off Sky News and BBC News at the same time, since that's where people are seeing the most sensational videos that encourage people to join in. Or.. perhaps just leave it as is, eh?

ck2• 15 years ago

Makes about as much sense as groping millions of passengers before they fly and take away their water bottles because a dozen people managed to take over a plane.

pointyhat• 15 years ago

It won't make any difference. A lot of the rioters had PMRs as do the police. Even ground.

techiferous• 15 years ago

"Free speech is central to our democracy, but so is public safety and security,"

There is no other word for this than stupid. Free speech is not in opposition to security. You can have free speech and safety. Unless you're too stupid to figure out how.

xedarius• 15 years ago

It's strange because this is not getting reported at all in the UK (and by the UK on mean on the BBC).

dkersten• 15 years ago

Because nobody ever rioted before facebook.

rvschuilenburg• 15 years ago

exactly. And after blocking it all down, the rioters will be all like "huh, what now? Oh well, we better not start a riot then".

dmor• 15 years ago

Maybe they should focus on enforcing the laws they have, not forming special committees to write more. I have to believe it is against the terms of service of all these apps to conspire to commit crimes or participate in criminal activity using Twitter, Facebook, BBM, etc. Would they propose shutting down telephones, text messaging, and all other forms of communication (snail mail, singing clown telegrams, monkey butlers) which have been used for good and evil since their existence?

mojuba• 15 years ago

Just yesterday some commentator on Sky said it's the television to blame in the first place, for spreading a message that looting gets away without punishment. Internet and mobile communication came into play only after that.

daveoh• 15 years ago

OK lets look at the facts here. Blackberry phones have become widely used by the urban poor because they are free on cheap tarrifs. BBM is essentially free text messaging and so also widely used by the urban poor. Its should come as no surprise that the riots were co-ordinated by BBM. Its just text messaging, quick and easy. I find it hard to believe that the rioters running round London was browsing facebook and twitter.

The comparison should not be made with social networking sites (which the term social media is synonymous with), just because BBM uses the internet, rather the comparison should be made with text messaging. I like how the term 'social media' has been used here. What is social media? Anything that is used for communication? So are we talking about controlling text messaging, phone calls, email? Because to organise this amount of organised theft and vandalism these avenues of communication are more likely to be the methods of choice.

a3_nm• 15 years ago

If this could encourage people in Britain to use alternatives to Facebook and Twitter, then this could be a pretty good thing for the health of the social media ecosystem.

Havoc• 15 years ago

Good luck enforcing that.

alexholehouse• 15 years ago

I implore everyone commenting here to;

a) Listen to the actual statement [1] (or even better debate) - DO NOT take what CNN, Metro or anyone other news outlet says for granted. Journalists want to sell newspapers/adspace, parliamentary debate is often not the most glamorous thing in the world, so there is a certain need to spice things up. Reporting can be factually accurate while remaining bias or even misleading.

b) Do NOT draw unconditional comparison with incidents in Libya, Egypt or Norway. It's ignorant and more than anything belittles events in those countries.

c) Understand that the reporting of these riots by the international community, or more importantly the profiling of those involved, has been unreasonably flattering. The absolute majority of people in the UK have no sympathy for these people. This is not a class, race or age issue. Clearly, I cannot speak for all British citizens, but the only people I've seen with anything complementary regarding those involved in the riots (and I say riots, which are separate from the initial protests, which are a whole other kettle of fish) are ill informed and closed minded. This is not an uprising of the social underclass - it's rioting by a tiny fraction of people who have been systematically failed by elements of multiple governments' social, economic and education polices, but that does in no way give them to right to behave as they have. Many thousands more are in the same situation and did not participate, but rather displayed horror at the events.

This is not meant to be inflammatory - there are many problems which need to be addressed, both in terms of policy, as well as the more worrying collapse of morals and underlying social detritus which again is very much not a class, race or age factor. These riots are symptomatic of that.

However, in no way did David Cameron (who is not my favourite person in the world) propose an all out social media ban, and I feel that by omitting the ("... for rioters") in this title is somewhat misleading. The government will discuss the situation with the companies at hand (initially RIM/Twitter and Facebook), and if a workable solution presents itself, this will be debated in parliament. David Cameron is not an expert on social media, but would you expect him to be? That is the reason for these meetings. That is how democracy works.

This is not a knee-jerk and blanket reaction (as seen in Egypt/Libya) but one that will go through proper process. There is already an e-petition which has attracted enough supports to force governmental debate on the subject of removing benefits from rioters [2], a poorly thought out move in my opinion, but one that will nevertheless be debated by parliament. People are angry, and the government must respond to that without being too heavy handed. This is not straightforward, but equally a lack of review regarding social media's impact on the riots would be irresponsible.

d) (And not really relevant here at all, but it's been winding me right up) BlackBerry is a brand of phone. RIM is the company that makes that phone. Officials cannot talk to "BlackBerry", they talk to RIM - it's like saying officials will talk to "BigMac".

[1] http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/pm-statement-on-disorder-in-... [2] http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337

ximeng• 15 years ago

See also MP Louise Mensch's twitter feed:

https://twitter.com/#!/LouiseMensch/status/10175449570018508...

"And really, stop w/ all the dramatics. Nobody is talking about "shutting down Twitter". It's about listening to police & a couple hours off." amongst other opinions.

msabalau• 15 years ago

One might have hoped that a leader in a democratic society would have thought carefully and fully before suggesting that a type of media be regulated or restricted. It is sad that Cameron instead chooses to indulge in irresponsible speculation about the value of such measures.

Indeed, it would seem that the spread of the rioting and looting can most easily be explained by people watching television and seeing others get away with such crimes.

m0wfo• 15 years ago

What worries me as much as the double standard, i.e. scorning Iran, China etc for their crackdown social networking sites is that the conservatives have the unequivocal support of Labour on this issue.

Not only is there no criticism coming from the political left in the UK, but their obsession with deploying intrusive computer systems during their previous period in office suggests a power like this would have been enacted far more quickly were they still in charge.

In wake of riots, British PM proposes social media ban

Related Stories