Study of Alpha Male Baboons Shows It’s Stressful at the Top

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/15/science/15baboon.html?hp

by robg • 15 years ago

50 21 15 years ago

I can relate to this.

I have high aspirations and expectations for myself. These often create very good opportunities and reinforce my work ethic. But they also have consequences outside of work that I have to pay for. I'm not good at relaxing and I believe I always need to be working on something. Quite frankly, it is a neurosis. Hand-waving comments about "reaching one's potential" as it relates to evolution don't address the topic fully. There needs to be a balance, a time to relax and say, "this is sufficient." The emotional side of your being needs to be allowed the space to breathe.

Perhaps more nuanced thinking on this topic can bring down the level of alpha worship we have in our culture.

maratd• 15 years ago

You are not a baboon. Social structures are unique to each species. You are rationalizing and justifying your decisions. You don't have to. If it works for you, that's reason enough.

> Perhaps more nuanced thinking on this topic can bring down the level of alpha worship we have in our culture.

There are no alpha/beta males in human society. An overwhelming majority of males get access to females.

Do you mean admiration of more aggressive males?

I'd say that's flat out wrong. We send those to jail and execute them.

If anything, we admire people who get things done. Nobody cares how you do it. If you don't admire people for what they accomplish, then what do you admire them for?

simonsarris2• 15 years ago

> There are no alpha/beta males in human society. An overwhelming majority of males get access to females.

This is absolutely false. What percentage of our ancestors were women? It isn't 50%. Half of the people who ever lived were women, but thats certainly not the case for all the people who ever lived and have a descendant living today.

Thanks to DNA analysis we know that today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men.

To get that kind of difference, the figures have to be something like: Throughout the entire history of the human race, maybe 80% of women but only 40% of men reproduced.

In other words, most human males who ever lived do not have descendants who are alive today.

kahawe• 15 years ago

I doubt you can (even remotely) compare the stress levels and omnipresent threat of losing rank and life an "alpha" baboon has to face with a heightened thrive for perfection and possible ADHD.

> While the new study does not have a direct application to human health or social structure[...]

I think ultimately the "alpha worship" we see today is nothing but a new marketing term for the old and very human desire that has always been there: to FINALLY get what one has always desired and self-help on how to be "alpha" is nothing but the snake-oil of the hour.

Skillset• 15 years ago

This makes sense. If you work yourself to the bone just to be successful and putting yourself in the position to compete with other "alphas," you're going to be stressed. And you're not going to fight your competitors to the death over a job or female baboon — you have to play by society's rules, which attempts to equalize us to some degree.

Human civilization, of course, is far too complex to reduce people to just alpha or beta. But some people still like to think of it that way. Which is why I'm thinking of starting a "beta pride" movement: We're less stressed, we rarely end up in prison and we still manage to find mates once in a while.

Who's with me?

andrewcross• 15 years ago

This reminds me of when I played the board game "Life" as a kid. I never wanted the highest salary since you knew people would swap with you if they could. The trick was to get that $80K salary so you could sneak under the radar while everyone was trading the $90&100K salaries.

btcoal• 15 years ago

"God had given him a tail to keep the flies off... he would sooner have had no tail and no flies"

yoshyosh• 15 years ago

haha that's pretty funny. Interesting how you realized that strategy so young when the adults were probably still fighting over the $90-100k salaries :D

sambeau• 15 years ago

That is the total opposite of other studies I've seen that showed it was stressful at the bottom.

In other animal studies the pecking order seemed to mimic the amount of stress each animal was under: more pecking; more stress.

One interesting human study showed that the most stressed person in large company was the doorman. They theorised that he had total responsibility for the safety of the building but practically no power.

I'll look for the sources

jhamburger• 15 years ago

It's not the total opposite. This article is saying that the top AND the bottom of society are both very stressful, and those right below the top are in the least stressful position. Personally, this does jive with my experience in human society. Who struggles more with drug abuse, marital problems, etc, the "rich and famous" or the "reasonably well off and relatively popular"?

mattsidesinger• 15 years ago

I recently watched "Killer Stress", a National Geographic special, on Netflix. Robert Sapolsky (cited in the article and an awesome crazy-haried guy that lives with the Baboons) talks about how it is stressful to be at the bottom. By taking blood samples, he is able to measure stress levels.

Sapolsky sounds liks a stand up guy. If you read the article, Sapolsky does not discredit the new findings, "The study is both impressive and surprising, said Robert Sapolsky".

MetaMan• 15 years ago

Quote: "Researchers collected fecal samples to measure levels of stress hormones called glucocorticoids".

So you can tell who the boss is by their shit !

Metaphorically speaking we've been doing this for years :-)

mannicken• 15 years ago

This is something I was thinking about lately. That competing for being an alpha male/reproducing is just something society has to have and encourage to exist. It's like going to high school; it's boring, it's not that much fun but it's one of those things you have to do.

There are three main ways society can encourage reproduction:

1) Fear. Mainly fear of appearing a loser if you don't reproduce/have sex. Peer-pressure in other words.

2) Positive reinforcement. Making sex more fun: sex-toys, apparel, Viagra, etc.

3) Eliminate alternatives. Eliminating/making illegal things that are better than sex/lead to decreased interest in sex -- like drugs that cause pleasure greater than orgasm.

I was asking myself lately, "Why, stereotypical nerds, being so smart and intelligent don't have much sex?" And then it hit me: because sex's pleasure is overstated through propaganda. It's a physical activity that requires immense effort and concentration, carries a ton of risk, and doesn't offer enough in return.

You know why dumbest people often have more children? Because to exert so much effort on so little in return means you have to fall into the traps of advertisement, or just do it out of culture. If you stop to think what exactly makes you want sex, you'll probably never stress over having sex again, just like you don't stress over not drinking beer if everyone's drinking it.

Study of Alpha Male Baboons Shows It’s Stressful at the Top

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