National parks are overcrowded and closing their gates

https://www.wsj.com/articles/national-parks-are-overcrowded-and-closing-their-gates-11623582002

by prostoalex • 5 years ago

41 78 5 years ago

tpmx4• 5 years ago

Relative to the population:

So much land... but so little "open" land.

Edit: The US has a higher population density number than I thought: 36 people per km^2. Still, it's not far that away from Sweden's 25 people people per km^2. Norway: 15 people per km^2, Finland: 18.

These scandinavian countries have a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam - of course it's culturally quite different in the US for historic reasons, but.. it just seems so weird to have opening hours to the nature.

If it was culturally/legally possible to step-by-step implement something like this in the US, I think it would be a great thing. I do see the challenges.

bombcar• 5 years ago

There are millions of acres of insanely easy to access BLM land but it’s all kinda boring.

tpmx4• 5 years ago

In this context: BLM?

throwaway0a5e• 5 years ago

Not everyone lives in California. Recreational land is much more sparse east of the Mississippi.

prawn6• 5 years ago

There is a lot that is less exciting than the highlights of a national park, but it's far from "all kinda boring". I've camped at loads of BLM locations and similar public, non-national-park spaces and found many great spots.

brudgers3• 5 years ago

There are amazing BLM lands surrounding Arches and Canyon Lands National Parks. Not as amazing as what is in the parks, sure. But anywhere else they would be a prime destination.

bsder3• 5 years ago

it just seems so weird to have opening hours to the nature.

Mostly only in the areas that you can drive to or that have something that can be destroyed.

Lots of areas in the US are available with a very brief hike and magically they don't seem to have opening hours.

In addition, there are lots of areas in the US that are quite beautiful but aren't under the management of BLM.

For goodness sake, almost the entire upper third of Pennsylvania is forest--as are huge swaths of New York, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine.

tpmx4• 5 years ago

But you are trespassing when hiking there, right? Unless you ask the land owner for permission in advance.

brudgers3• 5 years ago

Many popular US National Parks do not have open and closed hours. Closed hours are an exception not the rule and arise from unique conditions. Petrified Forest for example is closed at night to prevent illegal collection of its artifacts and rocks.

Parks such as Arches and Canyon Lands mentioned in the article turn away visitors when their limited infrastructure reaches capacity. And their infrastructure is deliberately limited to protect their natural and cultural resources.

Generally, a good strategy is visit before 10am and after 5pm during peak season. The crowds come after breakfast and leave for dinner.

Most American public land is not in National Parks even though the US park system is utterly vast. National Forests, National Monuments, National Grasslands, National Recreation Areas, and other public lands tend to be open access all the time.

The US doesn’t have freedom to roam because it is not really needed in most places. Texas is the exception due to having so little public land.

Glavnokoman• 5 years ago

it just seems so weird to have opening hours to the nature

No it is not. The natural parks are there to protect the nature and not to entertain the crowds of bored retards.

stefan_• 5 years ago

It's very weird to me that Americans have turned nature into Disney-esque amusement parks with clearly delineated opening times and their own little police force.

nickff• 5 years ago

"...Americans have turned nature into Disney-esque amusement parks..."

This comment makes me think you've never been to North America. The stretches of wilderness are truly vast; it's nothing like Britain or Europe.

rackjack• 5 years ago

Agreed, their comment screams "I'm European and I think I can drive across America in a day" to me, especially the bit about the police force.

mortehu4• 5 years ago

Most of the wilderness is quite nondescript, though. There are far too many people for the few amazing sites. Compare to Norway, the Mediterranean coast and islands, the Alps, and the Canary Islands.

ianlevesque3• 5 years ago

Wow I feel attacked. Its hardly Disney-esque, there are some delineated trails for safety and restrictions to prevent them from being destroyed by the millions of yearly visitors. If you want federally owned but chaotic there's millions of acres of BLM land, particularly in the west. Not every American is a blithering idiot.

Mountain_Skies2• 5 years ago

National Forests are a nice balance between the two. Most trails are lightly trafficked, especially when you get more than a couple of miles from the trailhead.

coding123• 5 years ago

I think what OP is referring to is that it seems like every year or so we hear that someone knocks over some balanced rock in Bryce or Moab or jumps into the grand prismatic pools in yellowstone.

And yeah, those areas are really full of idiot tourists walking around everywhere.

What I think a lot of people don't understand is that is 0.00001% of all the beauty that BLM/NF lands in the US offer. I have my own favorite trails in Oregon, Arizona, Utah (that I won't share anywhere) but some of them see 1 person per day. I'm sure there are some folks that know about trails visited once a year. It's those areas that are definitely NOT Disney. (Especially on June 21 when you'll have thousands of naked people hiking everywhere)

tmotwu• 5 years ago

Why is it weird to preserve and strongly regulate natural landmarks?

yupper323• 5 years ago

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Americans like nature too much?

We protect it too much, including with rangers?

We have specific landmarks that are absolutely amazing and popular?

If you want to see specific landmarks (Yosemite valley, Arches), then they're going to be crowded because they're popular (for good reason. they're amazing). If you want to be deep in the wilderness with no one around, there are a massive number of options.

GavinMcG2• 5 years ago

They're hardly amusement parks. Many don't have gates, but the most popular ones do need to control the flow somehow. There are roads, and trails, and sometimes lodging. People can buy souvenirs from affiliated nonprofits. Aside from that, though, there's a lot of emphasis on education, not entertainment.

Also, I've experienced an order of magnitude more joy and awe in various National Parks than in any amusement park.

handmodel• 5 years ago

I went to Yellowstone a couple years ago over a holiday weekend and it was absolutely packed trying to find parking near Old Faithful or the prismatic springs.

However, if you walked literally 10 minutes onto a trail you'd reach a point where you'd start to only see people pass every few minutes. Completely isolated for the rest of the day.

tomc19852• 5 years ago

Well yeah, the fastest way to ruin natural space is to let in too many people.

This is just national parks. There is a lot of wilderness that is not governed by that system. As another example, BLM land is pretty much free use.

User232• 5 years ago

In California BLM land is popular for plinking because of the supremacy clause. Sadly people abuse the opportunity and leave filthy messes behind.

soneil• 5 years ago

It makes sense to me. There's a line between preserving it and enjoying it. We've had plenty of similar problems in the UK with staycation-ers enjoying their first trip out into the lake district, and leaving behind their empty beers, the remains of the cheapest tent they could find, etc.

If you've ever seen the leftovers of people camping at a festival, it's immediately obvious that there's a saturation point for things like this.

mc32• 5 years ago

If you like open wilderness and few people, there is ample BLM land[1]. It’s vast and you can camp in it. No need to go to national parks to camp in the open.

[1] https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/BLM%20Camping%20Guid...

prawn6• 5 years ago

And many national parks have reasonable rules for backcountry camping - the rules themselves encourage you to get out of sight. It's restrictive at Zion, but I've camped in the backcountry at Joshua Tree a couple of times, at Arches, Canyonlands, etc. You leave the trail and won't necessarily see anyone until you return.

hindsightbias• 5 years ago

You should read some Edward Abbey.

hornd• 5 years ago

Prior to the 70s, rangers weren't law enforcement officers. This changed with the Yosemite/Stoneman riot.

omegaham• 5 years ago

If you don't do that, the areas will be absolutely ruined by people just doing whatever they want.

There are literally tens of thousands of other campsites and trails to hit if you want to avoid that kind of thing. Hell, even in the more crowded areas, it's straightforward to head into backcountry trails and go from hundreds of people to none.

From personal experience: Multnomah Falls, in the Columbia Gorge in Oregon, is a madhouse. Tour groups get bused in, everyone and their dog (literally) is walking up to the top of the waterfall, etc. More than two million people visit the falls every year. But if you head past the waterfall, you'll only see a few people, and after five miles up the Larch Mountain trail, there's absolutely nobody except for the very occasional weirdo like me. And if you don't like the crowds even at the entrance, there are a gazillion other trails in the Gorge that are very sparsely traveled.

jdavis703• 5 years ago

I was in Yosemite early this spring (before they implemented the advanced registration system). Even the backcountry trail I was on was crowded. There were so many people it felt like taking a walk in an urban park.

dougmwne4• 5 years ago

We have so much public land that's essentially uninhabited and in a wild state. A small amount is managed as parks, essentially natural tourist attractions. The fees, entry gates and infrastructure is not only to better accommodate and attract tourists. It's also to carefully manage the human impact on these natural areas. It's not Disneyland, it's a fragile natural ecosystem. The visitors can very easily destroy the very thing they are coming to see.[1]

[1]https://www.audubon.org/news/a-drone-crash-caused-thousands-...

quartesixte• 5 years ago

American National Parks are still very much wilderness landscapes. Even the most touristy of areas can have the barest of amenities.

There are no guard rails at the edge of many popular high points. You can fall off the top off Half-Dome in Yosemite if you’re not careful. Bison will and often do gore people in Yellowstone. Hikers drown in flashfloods all the time.

yupper323• 5 years ago

I can't read the article, but how is this actually a problem?

Set up a permit system and call it a day. They already do that for popular trails/activities.

chrisseaton3• 5 years ago

how is this actually a problem?

Over-use damages our natural spaces.

yupper323• 5 years ago

Sorry, I meant that this is self inflicted by the national parks. They know how to run a permit system and if the spaces are actually over crowded they can implement more of these systems across their parks and areas.

ra7• 5 years ago

Set up a permit system and call it a day.

Yosemite implemented reservation system due to Covid and they carried it over. It works great. There’s less traffic inside the park, fewer people on trails and plenty of parking spots available. Only drawback is that tickets run out very quickly as it’s such a popular place.

chrisseaton3• 5 years ago

plenty of parking spots available

The dream of the outdoors...

secabeen• 5 years ago

I was in Moab when the author of this article was. It was busy, but not honestly that bad, especially if you went to the park in the evening. We entered the park at about 5:30pm with no line, was all the things we wanted to see, enjoyed the stars coming out, and were home by bedtime.

prawn6• 5 years ago

Correct. Get into Arches before sunrise - most people sleep in. Hike trails as everyone is leaving for dinner in town. Last trip, we did Devils Garden out on the primitive trail from about 7-10pm with sunset - barely saw anyone. Both times I've been to Fiery Furnace, I didn't see more than a couple of people.

Some places will inevitably be busy (Delicate Arch at each end of the day) and Windows for sunrise but you don't have to adjust your behaviour much to miss the hordes. Even Windows at sunrise is tolerable as most people arrive after that.

LiquidPolymer• 5 years ago

I love National Parks and have done a ton of federal contracts with as a producer and photographer. But when I go camping - it’s far from the parks. I just spent 5 days out near Fort Rock in Oregon. Absolutely incredible high desert landscapes and epic skies. Nary a soul to be seen for days. Cougar tracks were visible on the trail. Creating a National Park here would ruin it. Sadly.

spodek• 5 years ago

We Can Dance Around Environmental Problems All We Want. We Eventually Reach Overpopulation and Overconsumption: https://shows.acast.com/leadership-and-the-environment/episo....

kleer001• 5 years ago

thankfully we'll peak at about 10 billion and drop from there

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/14/world/world-population-shrink...

yboris• 5 years ago

Whenever I hear "overpopulation" from anyone, I want them to watch this video:

Overpopulation or Underpopulation by Toby Ord

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7LgGylpI9U

A rough snippet: note that hammers and songs are different. Hammers are made of matter and require labor. Songs are a pattern and can be copied virtually for free. Songs are more valuable when there are more people: greater total enjoyment. And having more people means more minds to create great things. Some things like computers are so complex that they require a large population to make. Smaller populations might not yield the amazing technology we could otherwise have.

xscott• 5 years ago

This video might be more approachable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LyzBoHo5EI

I'm sure it won't convince all of the Malthusian doom and gloom sorts, but it's worth a try.

bsder3• 5 years ago

Except that as soon as you make life for women not suck, your country falls below replacement rate almost immediately.

The easiest way to avoid overpopulation is to establish equality for women.

smartbit• 5 years ago

https://archive.is/Njmby

National parks are overcrowded and closing their gates

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