President of Chad Killed on the Battlefield

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/20/chad-president-idriss-deby-dies-military-says

by fsloth • 5 years ago

50 91 5 years ago

theguardian.com

fsloth3• 5 years ago

It is extremely rare for the head of state to die as a direct result of battlefield engagement.

wffurr• 5 years ago

Since 1633 or so.

enriquto• 5 years ago

or libya a few years ago?

tored• 5 years ago

1718

boomboomsubban5• 5 years ago

My extreme cynicism makes me doubt it happened this time either. Not giving a victory speech and instead rushing into danger only to heroically die sounds like a cover-up of either a natural causes death or an internal coup.

rtsil5• 5 years ago

The rebels claimed to have wounded him during the fights so this is more of an admission than a cover-up.

throwaway0a5e• 5 years ago

More likely this was a "show up at a forward base and visit the troops" type thing and the other guys got their hands on his itinerary and a) dumped a bunch of mortars on his general location b) threw every available asset at said forward base and overwhelmed it.

DyslexicAtheist5• 5 years ago

skin in the game. there is something incredibly honorable about it.

Can anyone picture BoJo, Trump or Biden jumping off a chopper in Overtheristan killing locals?

In the West we use the term "who live by the sword shall die by the sword" (Matthew) but only as a warning. I think it illustrates the disconnect between these worlds. What is warning in one place/religion is a _promise_ in the other.

My wife (Japanese) would laugh "at the cowardice" displayed by somebody who questions the right to revenge (an eye for an eye) or hesitates taking their life to save the honor of their family, etc ...

This sounds alien to Westerners if not terrifying to those in power to have an honor based system. It is why media in all German speaking countries use the word "clan" only in a racist sense reserved for specific minorities and aimed to criminalize those who live in these older forms of social groups (with perhaps hundreds of people)[0]

While most are quick to denounce an evangelical missionary[1] hopping of the boat in the Andaman sea to "convert the local heathens", it's much easier to turn a blind eye at every-day injustice against alternative forms of social groups (Roma in Europe come to mind, refugees, or indeed very large families of South Easter European decent that would automatically be labelled terrorists or criminals, Bosnians, Kosovo-Albanias, etc).

[0] a clan in Hamburg, Berlin, Vienna etc is never somebody "good" e.g. the strong family bond here is caricaturized as an organized criminal and only mentioned in relation to drug or human trafficking.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-usa-murder-idUSKCN1...

snikeris• 5 years ago

I think the doctrine of an eye for an eye is alive and well in the West. It seems to be a part of the human condition.

However, rejecting it isn't cowardice. It's spiritual growth.

kingsuper20• 5 years ago

Can anyone picture BoJo, Trump or Biden jumping off a chopper in Overtheristan killing locals?

Of course not, but given their age and the extreme-high risk aversion of modern people, yer not going to see that anytime soon. Not that many people have three sons (the third going into the military) in any case.

Nothing new here. I just assume that a sclerotic ruling class is simply a sign of late-stage empire. Eventually you'll see an interregnum followed by one of the other models for large scale social integration.

sjg0073• 5 years ago

The notion of a social or family honor has its own psychological problems.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/minority-report/2014...

sam_goody2• 5 years ago

Is this good or bad for people of Chad?

hugh-avherald• 5 years ago

Here is a recent opinion on him: https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/04/14/chad-election-idriss-de...

throwaways885• 5 years ago

The subtitle might give more context:

Déby had ruled for 30 years and won a sixth term in elections last week

kamarg• 5 years ago

Are these elections or "elections"? I don't know anything about Chad.

versale2• 5 years ago

"He was one of Africa’s longest-serving leaders and a close ally of western powers..."

So, it depends on how you view "western powers", I guess.

tyingq2• 5 years ago

"Reports from N’Djamena, the capital, suggested that in the wake of Déby’s death, parliament has been dissolved and the government replaced by a transitional military council led by Déby’s 37-year-old son Mahamat Idriss Déby Itno, a general"

The short-term at least, sounds worse.

xbar• 5 years ago

It calls into question who the enemy on the battlefield might have been.

sam_goody2• 5 years ago

According to the linked opinion [1], not sure if it is worse. The old guard may have been the equivalent of a bad military council, and the new may have less military resources, may be a better leader, or may be more afraid of the populace.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/aug/14/p...

fsloth3• 5 years ago

While supplanting a de facto life-long dictator might sound like a good idea to some, countries with weak institutions generally just fall into the hands of another power clique (or remain in the hands of the incumbent crony dynasty if it prevails).

From https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/chad/overview - "Chad ... is ranked last on the World Bank’s Human Capital Index.". This would indicate weak institutions which gives very little reason for optimism.

mminer237• 5 years ago

This will at the least reduce stability in the country, which to the average person is one of the most important things.

Déby was a ruthless dictator fighting against ruthless Libyan-backed Islamists (and to a lesser extent Boko Haram). Both are horrible. Déby murdered political opponents and oppressed his people. The rebels used child soldiers, executed PoWs, and just want to set up their own dictatorship but Muslim.

Currently, power has passed to his son, who is a general-major, so not much has changed, except he presumably has less power. This probably means more military influence in the country and less success against the rebels.

Best case, his son turns out to be a better dictator than his father or least have to concede to the people more.

Worst case, the discontent and political infighting leads to more instability and hardship for the country and the weakness leads to the rebels taking over.

hourislate• 5 years ago

It should be mandatory for all Presidents to be on the battle field. It should also be mandatory for all members of congress and the senate to rotate in and out of the battle field.

nyc_pizzadev• 5 years ago

Wouldn’t this be akin to a military based government?

dragontamer8• 5 years ago

Then the Battle of Agincourt happens and you lose something like 1/2 of all of your leaders. Then your status as a world power is lost forever.

Besides, I don't think anyone wants a government based on military service today. Military is important, but not as important as say, infrastructure, hospitals, schools, technology, engineering, or a myriad of other government services today.

I'd rather have more government officials who know the details of building road projects or high speed fiber. Or heck, maybe a few web designer politicians so that official government websites actually work

bigbillheck• 5 years ago

Then the Battle of Agincourt happens and you lose something like 1/2 of all of your leaders. Then your status as a world power is lost forever

Seems like a fair risk.

capableweb2• 5 years ago

Besides, I don't think anyone wants a government based on military service today. Military is important, but not as important as say, infrastructure, hospitals, schools, technology, engineering, or a myriad of other government services today.

I think the fact that one of the world powers today is all about military and projected power disproves this. Almost 50% of the population of that country made it clear that the military is of uttermost importance for them.

Then there are other countries where this is true too.

I wish what you're saying is true, but I don't think it is in most places today, although in many it is like that.

pradn3• 5 years ago

The French still win the Hundred Years' War even after the Battle of Agincourt, and are clearly the dominant force in Western Europe until the advent of industrialization.

Aeolun• 5 years ago

I don’t think your status as a world power comes from 50% of your political leaders.

At least, if that status was lost after that battle I’d seriously look into other reasons.

mgarfias2• 5 years ago

I think his point wasn’t to have a political class with military experience, but rather a political class that are personally at risk from their policies and decisions.

thehappypm• 5 years ago

This is such an awful idea, I love it.

koolba• 5 years ago

I’d prefer requiring they have children that serve in the armed forces. Nothing makes you think twice about sending people to die in foreign lands as much as your own child being right there with them.

omnicarinha• 5 years ago

Well this already happens at some places, but due to some "internal works" (i.e nepotism) their children are always highly ranked and can sit at the comfort of their home country while a war is waged.

gph• 5 years ago

Then you'd just be optimizing even more for sociopathic politicians. It's not like caring more about your children than power is some universal behavior in humans.

arethuza2• 5 years ago

Pretty much every recent generation of the UK royalty has had someone who has been in combat.

temp8964• 5 years ago

How do you put this mandate on your enemy?

PNWChris• 5 years ago

Is the goal of such a policy to expose our leaders to the horrors of war, and hopefully yield a more compassionate government? A noble idea, but to implement it, you would basically need to actively pursue a state of war.

If the government of enlightened former-warriors created a world without war, would that be a failure for future generations because their leaders wouldn't get the exposure required? At the end of the day, we ought to find more sustainable ways to prepare our civil servants and filter for capable leaders.

bargle0• 5 years ago

Then the only people willing to lead would be soldiers. That probably isn't the outcome you want.

cycrutchfield• 5 years ago

I hear Myanmar has some excellent leaders with a military background.

MattGaiser• 5 years ago

This law would be accompanied by billions for drone research.

fsloth3• 5 years ago

So you propose a military junta? I hear it's been tried a few times in world history.

drran• 5 years ago

On October 7, 1916, near Bapaume, France, Hitler was wounded in the leg by a shell blast. On October 14, 1918, Corporal Adolf Hitler was temporarily blinded by a British gas shell. This experience helped him a lot to start WWW II.

nsajko2• 5 years ago

One big problem with your wish is that it's underspecified. How close to danger would you put the politicians, exactly?

DyslexicAtheist5• 5 years ago

How close to danger would you put the politicians

the Japanese politicians currently arguing that "the water of Fukushima does not present any danger to the environment and that it should be dumped into the sea" should only be allowed to consume the water they claim to be safe. that's about as close as it needs to be in order for accountability.

pjc50• 5 years ago

In asymmetric and counter-insurgency warfare, they already are, because the battlefield is everywhere. Ditto for nuclear weapons.

neilsense• 5 years ago

System of a Down had a song about this - BYOB

kodah• 5 years ago

Politicians do come by the battlefield and then they go home and brag about how they were exposed to war. This is common across the political spectrum.

Mostly their visits had nothing to do with actual policy and had more to do with scoring a picture with people in standard fatigues on big bases. Rarely if ever did those politicians get to see what it's like when a few American Marines are instructed to go on patrol with a platoon of Afghan National Army soldiers (I'm reminded of this story [0]. They'd parade the big armored vehicles by them, they'd show them videos of us blowing up things up from a distance, but rarely if ever did those stories cover when a 19 year old is kicking in the door to a house in Fallujah with a Russian supplied and made AK-47 pointed at his dome. Rarely would they see troops in their natural state. They made us shave, clean our clothes, and would hand out replacement gear if a VIP was coming by.

This is a limited subset of behavior I personally witnessed. Civilians do it too though, most people's understanding of Iraq and Afghanistan is based on fiction and rumors, where the real pros, cons, and incentives of each are buried under a mountain of narrative and conspiracy. In watching all the dog and pony show nature of things I wondered if politicians and regular civilians would actually benefit from military service.

In some way, I think yes. Maybe the left would stop crafting policy that is harmful to veterans and service members, like the ROE change that occurred around 2009. Maybe it would make the right do more than lip service and charade to the military and veterans. Maybe people would be more understanding and observant of the warrior class. But I'm always left with the thought that any of those experiences only mean something if someone cares to try to understand them in the first place.

[0] https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/veterans/2014/04/23/mar...

arethuza2• 5 years ago

Churchill had to be talked out of attending the D-Day Landings by King George VI - apparently he thought it unfair that if he couldn't attend the landings (which he wanted to do) then Churchill shouldn't be doing it either.

Edit: Out by one error for monarch

voldacar2• 5 years ago

Imagine if international disputes were settled by one-on-one combat between world leaders. Our ruling class of flabby fiftysomething bureaucrats would disappear fast

dragontamer8• 5 years ago

You mean like when Alexander Hamilton was killed in a duel by a rival politician? And Hamilton's son was killed in a duel as well?

All you get are the blood of pacifists. As pacifists are forced into duels and their opponents shoot them. Do you want all the pacifist politicians dead or retired?

The duelist era of American politics led to Andrew Jackson. A man who forced the trail of tears on his opponents. Live by the duel, rule by the duel. You just get sadistic assholes as president

snypher• 5 years ago

Yes, I'd probably trade some pacifist politicians for all collateral damage caused worldwide from war, both people and environment.

strulovich• 5 years ago

Or rather, our ruling class will turn into a UFC

booleandilemma• 5 years ago

To be replaced by macho 20-30 year olds who excel at one-on-one combat?

I'm not sure if this is better. Particularly when the 20 year old killing machine is put in charge of the nuclear arsenal, I think we'd all disappear fast.

voldacar2• 5 years ago

If I am going to be ruled by someone (this appears to be the case, at least for the forseeable future), I would rather it be someone like Alexander than someone like Brezhnev

I'm not sure if this is better.

Spend a little time seriously thinking about it. The status quo is a very low bar

_fat_santa• 5 years ago

Nah, the ruling class of flabby fiftysomething bureaucrats will stick around, we'll just have world peace.

Bud• 5 years ago

In related news, the presidents of Biff, Connor, Brandon, Tanner, Logan, and Chase are all still alive and were last seen in a frat house in Florida.

nerdponx• 5 years ago

Reports from N’Djamena, the capital, suggested that in the wake of Déby’s death, parliament has been dissolved and the government replaced by a transitional military council led by Déby’s 37-year-old son Mahamat Idriss Déby Itno, a general.

This is so alien to me. Why would they dissolve Parliament in this case? Is this a coup, or an expected turn of events?

The article is a tangle of names, allegiances, rebellions, and dictators. It makes it sound like Déby was one of the "good guys", but I have so little trust for the Western powers mentioned in the article (USA, France). I have no idea what's going on in this part of the world, but it seems like a total clusterfuck.

nsajko2• 5 years ago

There's a real gem at the end:

However the family succession and continuing presence of the military at the heart of power may reassure nervous allies such as France and the US, observers said.

With a link to this Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/natkpowell/status/1384477661632757774

President of Chad Killed on the Battlefield

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