Ask HN: Data-Oriented programming vs. Functional programming

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26434913

by viebel • 5 years ago

7 25 5 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

The main difference between Data-Oriented programming and Functional Programming is about how we represent data inside a program. What are the pros and cons of each approach?

nudpiedo• 5 years ago

You should add Ask HN to the title, and still I think your question may be better posted at stackoverfow or similar places rather than this forum.

viebel9• 5 years ago

Done

django77• 5 years ago

I don't think FP has anything to do with how data is represented, it's more related to how we operate on that data.

viebel9• 5 years ago

DOP and FP share common insights about separation between code and data and constraining ourselves to immutable data.

The main difference between DOP and FP is that in DOP we use generic data structures to represent data (e.g. maps and lists)

mcphage• 5 years ago

What do you feel are the differences in how data is represented between the two?

viebel9• 5 years ago

In both DOP and FP data is immutable. In FP, we tend to represent data with specific types while in DOP we represent data with generic data structures (e.g. maps and lists)

amboo7• 5 years ago

How about trying to define both first? I am not sure what data-oriented means.

viebel9• 5 years ago

Data-oriented programming is about representing data with immutable generic data structures (e.g. maps and lists) and manipulating data with general purpose functions

hctaw2• 5 years ago

That's no definition of DO I've ever heard. A list is a classic example of a non-data oriented structure!

DO as I understand it is about recognizing how data is actually laid out and interacted with by a processor, as opposed to meaningful abstract relationships to a programmer. It's about breaking down costly abstractions, rather than ignoring the cost of higher level abstractions.

DO exists primarily in opposition to OO, not FP. The classic example is the array of structs to struct of arrays (OO to DO transformation).

eternalban2• 5 years ago

He's defined that elsewhere in a book he just wrote for Manning. What is mildly annoying is that he is not really asking HN for advice here. He is pimping his book.

viebel9• 5 years ago

My purpose here is not to promote the book but to learn from FP experts what they think about the relevance of DOP approach to FP languages.

arcanon• 5 years ago

You should probably be less into philosophy and categorizing and more into building shit. Go watch some Feynman and then try to get something to work on the gpu

rmorey• 5 years ago

You should probably be less into philosophy and categorizing and more into building shit.

I need this written on a huge poster behind my desk

mamcx2• 5 years ago

No.

The specific structure can be part, but the difference is exactly as is on the name.

Niklaus Wirth say:

   Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs

Most paradigms pay a bigger attention to the "Algorithms" side. And data is a distant second class citizen.

"Functional Programming" is about functions. All discussions are centerer in the algorithms related to it.

"Object oriented" is about objects. All discussions are centerer in the algorithms related to it.

But this is distracting:

    Show me your flowcharts, and conceal your tables, and I shall continue to be mystified; show me your tables and I won’t usually need your flowcharts: they’ll be obvious.

Fred Brooks

That is why a lot of people get drown in abstractions, instead of solve what the problem is.

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Now, if we instead make data the driver of the decisions a lot of things can be simplified. A common example is when we ditch "abstracting-away" ORMs and just use SQL (that is data oriented), because hide/not use at full what a RDBMS is moronic.

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But both are part of the same coin. So if data become truly important, WHICH algorithms fit it better?

This is where become easier to work on data with structural comparisons, immutability, etc. Is in fact a relational way of think, just with other names and probably a small part of it.

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Now the answer is more like "yes" because focus in how represent data is actually big part of the deal, but that still can make some to get carry away by the algorithms of it, like get too focused in make use of persistent structures instead of exactly think on HOW to represent the data that allow the best way to manipulate it.

viebel9• 5 years ago

Has this data-centric approach be embraced in programming languages other than Clojure?

threatofrain• 5 years ago

How is Clojure data centric in the way people are talking about here? IMO Clojure values immutability in a way which is data agnostic, not data aware.

Also Clojure not emphasizing the power of types… but types emphasize programming with data awareness.

mamcx2• 5 years ago

Dependes in how you think about this, SQL is the most prominent.

Also array Langs like kdb+?

Ask HN: Data-Oriented programming vs. Functional programming

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