Elfstedentocht

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfstedentocht

by stevage • 5 years ago

295 124 5 years ago

en.wikipedia.org

We can only hope that maybe this year we will have another Elfstedentocht :)

arp2423• 5 years ago

The organizers have been pretty clear that they're not going to hold one during COVID, so I'd judge the chances to be extremely small, no matter what Thierry "GOAT IET OAN" Baudet says.

sammorrowdrums• 5 years ago

They said they are ready to hold an elfstedentocht within 48 hours, if there is any change to the rules though, so it would need both full ice formation and government intervention. Not holding any hopes though.

roelschroeven• 5 years ago

Certainly not this winter, but who knows, maybe in december. Not very likely though: december is generally not cold enough. There has been only one Elfstedentocht in december in its whole history.

Cthulhu_5• 5 years ago

Nah not going to happen; they need at least two weeks of serious frost for that, and as it stands, we'll get above zero weather again during the day next week. The sun seems to be melting a lot of the snow as well at the moment.

armada6514• 5 years ago

This is kind of the equivalent of the Superbowl for the Dutch, but due to global warming it hasn't been held in 24 years. The previous longest interval was 22 years, so some people are starting to doubt whether it will ever happen again.

Imagine if the real Superbowl wasn't held in 24 years due to global warming and may never happen again, perhaps then it would be more of a priority.

Tijdreiziger2• 5 years ago

This is kind of the equivalent of the Superbowl for the Dutch

Uh, I'm not too familiar with the Superbowl, but the title of 'most popular televised sporting event in the Netherlands' definitely goes to the football world championship.

armada6514• 5 years ago

'most popular televised sporting event in the Netherlands'

It's not hard to compete for that title when your competition hasn't had a televised event in 24 years...

robador• 5 years ago

I tried looking for a source but couldn't find it: I read years ago that a survey with the question "Would you rather have an elfstedentocht or win the World Cup" was answered predominantly with the former. I've used that as an example of how important this event is for the Dutch when explaining it to my foreign friends. I'll keep looking for a source, but no doubt the elfstedentocht is one of the most important events in Dutch culture regardless.

FooBarWidget• 5 years ago

I'm Dutch. I'm confused why anyone would downvote this comment. Parent has said nothing controversial or wrong, and did not violate any rules.

Denvercoder94• 5 years ago

the title of 'most popular televised sporting event in the Netherlands' definitely goes to the football world championship

Source? The last Elfstedentocht in 1997 had 9.2 million people watching it [1], while the semi-final of the Dutch national team in the world cup in 2014 had 9.1 million people watching it [2], and population had grown by ~1.5 million people in between.

[1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijftiende_Elfstedentocht#Reco... [2] https://kijkonderzoek.nl/component/kijkcijfers/file,j1-6-1-p

rapnie2• 5 years ago

I get your comparison to Superbowl to highlight the popularity to people abroad. A sibling mentions the football world championship.

But other than popularity there's big differences. Both Superbowl and world cup are highly organized, highly commercial events, planned way in advance, where top athletes perform.

The Elfstedentocht always comes unexpectedly. When there is a cold snap in the weather, a fever starts brewing among the population. As ice grows thicker people from all walks of life start to get involved to organize the event. Pumping stations stop their operation to improve ice conditions, crossings are created on patches of bad ice where one walks with skates over land (called 'kluunen'), and all across the track people start to sell hot chocolate and soup. The event is a huge social happening, not just for the top athletes. The people that come last over the finish line or the ones that just did not make it within the set timeframes are as much heroes as the winner of the tour.

Elfstedentocht is very much an event by the people, not an entertainment provided for the people.

hashmush• 5 years ago

Sounds like Vasaloppet, but rarer. It does have an organizer though, but still huge amounts of volunteers along and it's definitely an achievement just to complete it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasaloppet

lcrz2• 5 years ago

As ice grows thicker people from all walks of life start to get involved to organize the event.

This is not completely accurate. Sure, koek-en-zopie stuff might be organized by local restaurants or whatever, but the Elfstedentocht itself is prepared (almost) completely every single year. There is a whole foundation with internal hierarchy that oversees the process. The whole parcourse can be constructed on a 48 hour notice. The waterschappen don't stop their pumps out of hospitality or something, it is all pretty well organized.

Vinnl3• 5 years ago

Imagine if the real Superbowl wasn't held in 24 years due to global warming and may never happen again, perhaps then it would be more of a priority.

Given how much of a priority climate change has been in the Netherlands... I don't think so. Though I guess part of it is because it wasn't a guaranteed every-year event in the first place, so it's not that much of a change.

furyg3• 5 years ago

Given how much of a priority climate change has been in the Netherlands...

This is an important point for those who don't live in The Netherlands. NL has done an amazing job of marketing how 'green' they are, but has been really terrible at addressing climate change or even hitting their own climate targets.

misja111• 5 years ago

Imagine if the real Superbowl wasn't held in 24 years due to global warming and may never happen again, perhaps then it would be more of a priority.

I don't think that is a good comparison. The Superbowl is held every year, but the Elfstedentocht has always been a rare event depending on extreme winter conditions. From the first event in 1909 until 1997 there have been 15 of them, with the longest break between 1963 and 1985.

brnt• 5 years ago

So glad that as a small brnt I first used an alarm to get up and watch the 1997 edition in full. You're right, I've the feeling that my first is going to be my last as well.

Superbowl doesn't do it justice, it's much more than that.

Udik• 5 years ago

It's not the equivalent of the superbowl for the Dutch. It was never a yearly competition to begin with. It was always a very rare and unpredictable event- the 4th edition took place 12 years after the third, and the gap had nothing to do with climate change: it was 1929.

ed25519FUUU• 5 years ago

And it sounds like there was the potential to hold it this year but they preemptively canceled it because of covid.

TeMPOraL• 5 years ago

Isn't 24 years well past the point of anyone caring? That's a whole generation of people becoming adults without ever experiencing the event. I think after 24 years without Superbowl, Americans would just consider it a historical curiosity, and holding it again wouldn't be a national priority.

vanderZwan3• 5 years ago

It only makes the event more mythological. Also, it's easy for non-Dutch to underestimate how big of a deal speedskating is to the Dutch (and how big of a deal the Dutch are in speedskating). EDIT: I'll attempt to give an impression.

The medal count at the 2018 Winter Olympics might be a good starting point, look at how the Dutch dominated that event[0]. Keep in mind that we're a really tiny nation, so that suggests a disproportionate amount of Olympic-level speedskaters per capita. Which only makes sense if it's a really big sport here.

Another example: I assume that when you ask the average American who Shani Davis is you'll get a blank stare, despite his great achievements[1]. Ask the average Dutch person and they'll know, and might even tell you about "that cute fridge-scene with the Erben Wennemars picture"[2][3].

Now let's compare other nations where speedskating is still a thing. Nao Kodara might be a bit more famous in Japan than Davis is in the US, but check out her Twitter bio and you'll see a photo of the Elfstedentocht monument[4][5][6]. To professional speedskaters all over the world, the Dutch are an example (the fact that we often love them more than most people in their own country probably doesn't hurt either).

So yeah, speedskating is deeply embedded in the Dutch national identity, arguably even more than soccer because it feels like our sport.

You do make me wonder if narratives around national identity work a little differently on smaller scales though (remember that the Netherlands is a small nation of about 17.5 million people). Maybe the US is too big for a thing like this.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_skating_at_the_2018_Wint...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shani_Davis

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWNKa6eK2NU

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erben_Wennemars

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nao_Kodaira

[5] https://twitter.com/Nao_kodaira

[6] https://yktoo.com/en/blog/post/2015/11/22-the-monument-of-el...

Denvercoder94• 5 years ago

While the Elfstedentocht hasn't been held in 24 years, in that period we've had quite a few winters with enough frost to hold smaller, regional tour tour skating events (which can still attract 50,000+ people over the span of a few days). At least twice we came within a few days of organizing the Elfstedentocht. It's enough to keep the spirit alive, and it makes the event itself even more mythical.

tverbeure• 5 years ago

I remember the excitement and hype growing as a teenager, back in 1985 when it was about to happen again. Epic stories about 1963, predictions about favorites who spent hours in freezers to prepare, talk about how the winner would become immortal (Evert van Bentem, still remember his name, he won again 2 years later.) It was obviously broadcast live on local TV too.

And that was all just in Belgium.

It’s a huge thing.

amelius• 5 years ago

Better move to e.g. Sweden then:

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2018/feb/10/sweden-ice-sk...

janvdberg• 5 years ago

The organisation behind it has already ruled there wont be an event this year no matter how thick the ice gets. But people get the “fever” every time the temperature drops below 0 Celcius. This happens every year, it’s a thing.

Also because of next month’s elections some opportunistic/populistic partys are using this event as the hill to die on, hoping to catch some votes and ignoring what people might really be catching in case of such an event.

Freak_NL13• 5 years ago

As some journalists have noted: the 'fever' shows up mostly below the imaginary line you get if you connect the cities of Alkmaar and Zwolle. That is, there is no 'fever' in the province of Fryslân (or Frisia in English) where the event is held and treasured most dearly.

Here in the province people are resigned to the event not happening this year, due to a lack of decent ice and Covid. There will be plenty of skating this weekend, but nothing on the scale of the Elfstedentocht.

And indeed, the brandishing of this event by the populist leaders of the two farright political parties in the Netherlands as something that absolutely must go on if the ice does shape up, leaves a sour taste in many a Frisian's mouth. (Source: I'm a born and bred Frisian living there.)

hutzlibu2• 5 years ago

"due to a lack of decent ice "

Well, at least the ice should be there, soon?

abelaer• 5 years ago

"Nei twa kear nachtfroast wol de Hollanner der foar

Hy ropt om 't hurdst: 'de tocht der tochten, die gaat door'

Mar wy Friezen witte better

iis is samar ek wer wetter

En dus hâlde wy de kiezzen op elkoar"

rocqua4• 5 years ago

Last I heard, the organization said "the event cannot be held with the current corona rules". Which leaves a lot of room, specifically if the government decides to amend the rules. Besides, if the ice does seem like it will be good enough (which might be if the cold snap seems to hold for next week as well) I think the fever will start increasing in Friesland. Once that starts happening, public pressure will also start to mount.

Aeolun3• 5 years ago

I cannot imagine anyone catching covid while traveling at 40 km/h over the ice.

It’s basically impossible to get outside in the first place (unless you are standing mouth to mouth with someone).

Denvercoder94• 5 years ago

I cannot imagine anyone catching covid while traveling at 40 km/h over the ice.

The big issue isn't the skating itself, but the logistics at start/finish and the stempelposten with its congestion, as well as the 1 to 1.5 million spectators over a course of 200 km with their parties and alcohol consumption, and the logistics to get everyone there and back (full trains and busses).

It’s basically impossible to get outside in the first place (unless you are standing mouth to mouth with someone).

Source?

Cthulhu_5• 5 years ago

You seem to be making a few statements based on gut feeling instead of hard numbers. While I also think (opinion, I have no facts to back it) that being outside is safer than staying indoors, I don't think organizing an event is safe.

I mean the Netherlands got their first major outbreak thanks to carnaval last year, which is a partially outdoor event. Another one, in the US, the Sturgis motorcycle rally created a big wave in spreading the 'rona (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6947e1.htm)

m463• 5 years ago

When I was a kid, I grew up in the US where we had snow in the winter but we had to walk or take a bus to school.

People would say folks in scandanavian countries were able to skate to school or work and we would all just dream how amazing it would be.

codetrotter• 5 years ago

I grew up in a Scandinavian country but have never been able to skate to school. We have a lot of snow and ice but only the ice on the lakes and the arenas has been appropriate for skating where I grew up. The ice on the roads between my home and my schools has not been skateable with skates. Short stretches of it maybe.

Gravityloss• 5 years ago

If there's no sand, you could use a potkukelkka / kick sled. Back in the old times, old people especially could use this to get to the store when it was very slippery.

https://retkirent.fi/listings/813151-esla-potkukelkka-taittu...

matsemann• 5 years ago

Yeah, skating is only applicable if there is a lake between where you are and where you're going.

But what I did as a kid up in the mountains in Norway was using a kicksled if it was icy, or skiis if it was snowy. Full send down the 2 km hill to school, I think everyone in my neighborhood grew up learning to be adrenaline junkies.

cr18952• 5 years ago

Perhaps you are not implying so, but Netherlands is not Scandinavia and is located a fair bit further south.

mobilemidget• 5 years ago

Katie Couric is coming under fire for saying ice skating is an “important mode of transportation” for people who live in Amsterdam.

:) I remember these clips, was funny :)

aarchi2• 5 years ago

I've been using inline roller skates as my primary mode of transportation for the past month. The city I am currently in was clearly not designed for bike or skate traffic, but some newer areas are more accommodating. I've managed to do anything I would have used a car for, on skates. It certainly requires more logistical creativity, but it's a much more enjoyable experience and has no adverse environmental effects.

I would be thrilled to participate in an Elfstedentocht. I am somewhat trained and have my own figure skates, though I'd want speed skates for this event. The 200km seems doable, especially since there would be no elevation changes.

gpvos• 5 years ago

The cold is grueling though.

jacquesm3• 5 years ago

Nothing you can't cure with some newspapers under your clothing.

philshem3• 5 years ago

Lake Zürich (Zürisee) last froze in 1963.

Videos: https://youtu.be/eauucwl6C24

Short docu-film (DE) https://youtu.be/3_N-wWNXdmQ

More details (DE) https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/index/stadtpolizei_zueric...

Previous years with a frozen lake:

1223 / 1259 / 1262 / 1407 / 1491 / 1514 / 1517 / 1573 / 1600 / 1660 / 1684 /1695 / 1709 / 1716 / 1718 / 1740 / 1755 / 1763 / 1789 / 1830 / 1880 / 1891 / 1895 / 1929 / 1963

It’s something I expect to never experience - but life can be surprising!

—-

Edit: would be interesting if there was a correlation between the years above and volcanic winters throughout history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter

sebmellen• 5 years ago

Do you know if lake Zug froze over as well? Having lived in the area for a while some time ago those videos are really interesting, pretty surprising, and even quite funny!

philshem3• 5 years ago

Yes, seems in 1929 and 1963 as well.

https://www.zg.ch/behoerden/staatskanzlei/staatsarchiv/publi...

Here’s a funny old video from the Bodensee (Lake Constance): https://youtu.be/FX6HrNxYdd4

azepoi• 5 years ago

Lakes can also be subject to tsunamis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauredunum_event

philshem3• 5 years ago

Wow, fascinating to learn

rollulus• 5 years ago

Some context: the Elfstedentocht has become pretty rare due to climate change. Now guess what, while currently being in lockdown, the possibility for an Elfstedentocht is increasing since it's pretty cold to our standards right now. This Elfstedentocht typically attracts hundred thousands of people. Interesting times.

mcv2• 5 years ago

If the weather allowed it, it would be a real shame to ban it due to Corona. Maybe it's possible to restrict the number of participants and spread them out more. And maybe also restrict or spread out the spectators. Of course it takes place over such a large area that it's impossible to police everything, but they can probably address the hotspots.

But at the same time, it's such an iconic event, it may be hard to stop people if it does take place. Is it worth risking a Corona super-spreader event for possibly the last Elfstedentocht ever?

Freak_NL13• 5 years ago

It's not worth the risk. The organising committee has ruled out the event happening this year because of Covid and the risk of creating a super-spreader event.

WJW• 5 years ago

The whole point of it is that it's such a massive thing with tons of (fairly amateur) people partaking as well. If you just want to skate for 200 km you can go to one of the colder countries and do it every year.

hobofan5• 5 years ago

Isn't it also due to heightened security measures, which have increased in pretty much every sport over the decades? The non-race of 2012 sounds like it possibly could have happened and I would assume would have happened in the ~40s under similar conditions.

cr18952• 5 years ago

What sort of heightened security measures? I think nothing of the sort would hamper an Elfstedentocht.

The Vierdaagse is also a mass volunteer-driven event and it happens regularly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Four_Days_Marc...

Denvercoder94• 5 years ago

Now guess what, while currently being in lockdown, the possibility for an Elfstedentocht is increasing since it's pretty cold to our standards right now.

It's increased above the 0% it is when the temperature is above freezing, but there has never been any realistic scenario for there to be enough ice to hold it this year: significant parts of the route didn't yet have any ice yesterday. The weather predictions currently also predict increasing temperatures.

Cthulhu_5• 5 years ago

To add, if I recall correctly (I was 11 at the time) the 1997 event was only possible due to emergency shutdowns of factories (warm waste water) and 'ice transplants' where they moved tons of ice around into the main Elfstedentocht waters.

_bfoy• 5 years ago

The current situation https://www.friescheijsbond.frl/schaatskaart

Blue = water or ice <15cm

Green = ice >15cm

polytely2• 5 years ago

Wow I didn't know Fryslan (Friesland) has its own tld, that pretty cool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.frl

Freak_NL13• 5 years ago

It's pretty cool.

About the province's name though: it's Fryslân (West Frisian (a language spoken in the province) and official Dutch), Frisia (English), or Friesland (Dutch vernacular).

The reason it is called 'Friesland' on English language Wikipedia has to with the fact that there are (seemingly) no acceptable sources that can prove that Frisia is what most Frisian folk call their province in English, and what English speaking folk that have some dealings with the province do too. Of course, often the official West Frisian and Dutch name of 'Fryslân' is used as well in various documents and publications, but due to a number of non-Frisian Dutch Wikipedians who hate that the official name can be used in English instead of the Dutch vernacular 'Friesland' (language politics, often bordering on rather nasty nationalistic sentiments), English Wikipedia uses the vernacular Dutch name that is neither the common exonym (Frisia) nor the official name and endonym (Fryslân).

yread• 5 years ago

As wiki says the current king took part in the last one (he wasn't a king yet back then). And he is very proud of it - all participants get a pin (elfstedenkruisje) and he wears it next to the other "medals" he has even for official occasions

https://www.omropfryslan.nl/nieuws/248240-koning-draagt-elfs...

EDIT: just to add: I'm not a royal bootlicker. I just think it's one of a funny wacky things he does. Like participating in the "throw the toilet" competition

the-dude3• 5 years ago

We are so proud. A real man of the peoples.

Freak_NL13• 5 years ago

And as our prime minister strongly advised his fellow countrymen to avoid travelling abroad unnecessarily last October as the virus spread and our economy took a hit, our king and his royal family sat on their royal arses in a government plane en-route to the private royal holiday home in Greece for a well-deserved royal holiday break. He was already aware of the prime minister's message before he left; he just didn't think it applied to him nor did he think about the example he was setting.

They were back the very next day due to the resulting commotion.

Another swathe of Dutchmen turned republican that day. Their popularity has taken a dive the past few years. (The sooner we get rid of this outdated institution the better.)

namenotrequired• 5 years ago

Any HNers ever participated and want to share their experience?

tobyhinloopen• 5 years ago

My last name (see username) is similar to one of the cities.

Many people spell my name wrong because they know the city and write it the way the city is spelled.

Hinloopen (my name) vs Hindeloopen (the city)

ragebol• 5 years ago

As a Dutch guy, I'm just curious to hear everyone just butcher the pronounciation :-)

Cthulhu_5• 5 years ago

bonus points if they go for the Frisian pronunciation, "Alvestêdetocht".

aarchi2• 5 years ago

According to Wikipedia, Elfstedentocht is pronounced [ɛlf'steːdə(n)tɔxt] and Alvestêdetocht [ɔlvəˈstɛːdətɔχt]. Elfstedentocht is close to how I'd pronounce it as a non-native German speaker, except I was pronouncing ‹st› as [ʃ] and ‹o› as [o] (my native dialect has the cot-caught merger, so I don't use ɔ). Alvestêdetocht isn't much different, except for the ‹A› as [ɔ] that I wasn't expecting.

trhway• 5 years ago

in the Dutch movie "Kenau" about the 1572 siege of Haarlem and the city women who fought there, there is a scene where the women attack Spanish supply convoy in the fog and they do it riding on skates which naturally afforded them high speed of movement.

Elfstedentocht

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