Ask HN: Is there anywhere to get help with employment contracts?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25940949

by sharpcontract • 5 years ago

38 34 5 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Hello - I have received a contract for promotion but it has new clauses, some of which are a little over the top. Is there some community that offers help with this? I'm aware a lawyer is a good idea, but besides that?

cstuder• 5 years ago

Post your questions over there: https://workplace.stackexchange.com

But remember: You won't get legal advice there.

chadash2• 5 years ago

I have an uncle who is an employment lawyer. I go to him when I have questions. People on the internet are obsessed with edge cases. “I once had a former employer come after me for X” might be a true story (or might be exaggerated) but you don’t hear from the thousand other people who never had that issue. A good lawyer can look at a contract and tell you the legality and enforceability but also things like “yeah they can technically get you there but it’ll cost them dollars on the penny to sue you so don’t worry too much about it “. Basically let you understand the risks you are taking.

So if you are very worried, I recommend dishing out a few hundred dollars to talk to a lawyer. Call a few... sometimes they’ll give quick advice for free.

Side note, I am very curious what these new clauses are!

kawsper• 5 years ago

Where are you located? I usually bring new clauses and other legal workplace related questions to my union here in Denmark.

kaybe• 5 years ago

Which country are you in?

mjlee• 5 years ago

Where in the world are you? Can you join a union? Many of them offer free/very cheap legal advice on employment matters.

sokoloff2• 5 years ago

1% of your earnings every year is typically quite a bit more than a legal consultation 1-2x/decade. Unions can provide other things of course, but joining a union in order to avoid paying for a lawyer feels like buying a house to avoid renting a hotel room for a week. (Unions also make it less likely that reviewing terms in your contract that you find objectionable/unworkable would be fruitful. They may make it less necessary, but when it's necessary it often becomes pointless.)

sunbum• 5 years ago

What kind of shitty ass union are you paying 1% of your earnings every year? Here in Denmark I am paying less that $50 a month, where I save more on insurance each month than I pay in union dues, as well as the union dues being tax deductible.

chasd00• 5 years ago

My company lists a law firm as a benefit in the fine print sort of like how most phone carrier contracts come with road side service for some reason ( I think it’s because a lot of us end up divorced).

I would check and see, you may have a legal team already on tap.

jhauris• 5 years ago

I don't think the company legal benefit legal benefit can reliably be used in a situation where you have a conflict with your employer. Sometimes there is a specific exception in the benefit, but even if not there's an implicit conflict of interest.

ageitgey2• 5 years ago

You can ask an employment lawyer if you want to know what is actually enforceable after signing. But you can also just object to any terms in the contract that you think are going too far and you can negotiate with your company to remove them before signing. Whether the terms are potentially legal or not if signed doesn't always matter. It's usually easier to just not to sign anything that says you have to do something that you don't want to do.

For example, some jurisdictions say it is legal for an employer to write a contract that says they own anything you do in your spare time outside of work (US New York) but others set firmer limits on what the company can legally claim (US California). But in either case, you can just refuse to agree to it and negotiate better terms before signing.

iandanforth• 5 years ago

I once had a company ask that I hold them harmless for fraud. This was part of a severance and all I had to say was "no" and they took it out.

chadash2• 5 years ago

I commonly find this advice on the internet and it’s never worked in practice for me. Most companies have standard legal contracts for all employees. Changing them is expensive because they need to pay lawyers and convince managers. On the other hand, asking for more salary is a question that pretty much any manager deals with regularly. So I usually do that. I find that there’s a dollar value I can put on most legal clauses as long as I understand them. If I can’t put a dollar value on it, and it really makes me uncomfortable (after speaking to my lawyer) Id just walk away.

mxuribe3• 5 years ago

I have anecdotes from friends who have tried to object to terms...and they never seemed to have leverage in the negotiation. In almost every case, their direct boss was in favor of adjusting the terms to appease the employee (my friends) - because the supervisor saw the value in the employee...But either senior management or legal teams on the employer side - not understanding or caring for the value of the employee - are resistant to any adjustment of terms. For those senior members it almost becomes a mini war. Usually they respond within the kind of comments like "if you don't like the terms, go work elsewhere". In essence the majority of direct supervisors want to help employees, but the higher ups act like owners of a factory in late 1800s! So, yeah in theory an employee can object and try to negotiate...but in my almost 3 decades of professional career (as a technologist across numerous different industries), I have *never* heard of any good outcomes for an employee - they either have to accept terms or leave. (If things have turned out great for you, then huzzah for you; I count you in the minority!)

emilecantin• 5 years ago

I have _always_ been able to either change the terms of the contract, or get (in writing) an acceptable, more limited interpretation of what's written in the contract (by defining a term in the more strict sense of the word instead of keeping it broad).

But then, I've mostly worked in small companies; I suspect a FAANG is pretty different in that regard.

ageitgey2• 5 years ago

If things have turned out great for you, then huzzah for you; I count you in the minority!

I appreciate your experience. I think it depends on a lot on the company, where you work, your level of experience, etc.

When I've done work for smaller companies, I've often negotiated the terms with little to no issue (literally striking lines/paragraphs from the agreement as long as it was reasonable). But if you work for a FAANG, negotiating the legal terms is probably not going to happen unless you are a high level employee with a custom contract since they have a standardized hiring process for thousands of employees.

It also depends on your role and level of experience. The more senior you are or the more key the hire, the more you can probably negotiate. If you are a fresh hire from college, then you probably won't have any leverage at all.

Finally, I think your experience will vary a lot by how tight the market is for hiring someone in your position in that area. I've seen key technical hires in Silicon Valley negotiate all kinds of things if the company really wants to hire them. I've also seen people in roles like Project Managers and Designers be completely shut out of negotiating when the local market wasn't as competitive. Finally, I've seen people in less tech-dense cities with less market competition have no negotiating power even if they were senior hires.

cognaitiv• 5 years ago

Invest in a good attorney who specializes in employment. Don’t use a generalist attorney because they won’t be familiar with the nuances of employment contracts or the specifics to your jurisdiction. $700/hour may sting momentarily, but it’s peanuts in the long run. They also may be able to help you negotiate better salary, equity, terms, etc. A good one will be able to give you a sense of how they can help you and the general cost before you engage. Don’t just sign the updated contract (especially if you just relocated from California to a new state).

TheMog• 5 years ago

If your spideysense is tingling about new clauses, talk to an employment lawyer (or a union if you are a member of one) in the jurisdiction that you live in. That's really the only way to get valid legal advice, and you want to understand what these clauses mean from a legal perspective. Usually they're written in legalese and the defined meaning of something in legalese tends to be a bit different from the coloquial meaning.

Also, don't forget that even if some of the clauses they're trying to impose on you may not be legal or enforceable where you live and work, it usually takes a court to make that determination. So it's a matter of understanding what the impact of these new clauses is and what risks you take by accepting them.

And please, please don't accept the "oh, but we're never going to enforce those clauses". You don't want to be the first person they get enforced against. If the employer comes back with that statement, ask them to take out the offending clauses.

ghaff2• 5 years ago

I'd just add that for some things like non-competes, even if the company wouldn't/couldn't likely enforce, they can be red flags for a potential employer. I worked for a very small company for a number of years and our COO wouldn't touch anyone with a non-compete even if it seemed likely there was no issue because they just saw it as too big a risk for our small firm to get into a legal tangle with a much bigger company.

chrisbennet2• 5 years ago

I've never had a problem crossing stuff out.

This was an email I sent to a company I wound up working for after we (my lawyer and I) changed their 9 page "standard contract":

---------------

Hi guys,

Who signs these “standard contracts”?

4.2. In the event the Provider is in breach of any of the representations or warranties set forth in Section 4.1 above, in addition to any other remedies ZZZ may have under this Agreement, ZZZ, at its sole option and without incurring any liability, may: (d) Recover any and all actual, incidental and consequential damages to ZZZ, including but not limited to actual or estimated loss of profits and sales and costs to cover, attorney’s fees and costs;

Nice try but yeah, no. ;-)

If I can strike out the unreasonable parts we can probably come to some agreement.

-Chris

----------------------

In case you didn't read it, it was this is what was outrageous:

including but not limited to actual or estimated loss of profits and sales and costs to cover, attorney’s fees and costs

codingdave2• 5 years ago

IANAL, but...they have those rights anyway, by suing you. Putting it in a contract isn't changing reality, it is just saying "water is wet". If they tried to collect on it without a lawsuit, you'd surely file one to argue that you didn't breach agreements or were not the direct cause of loss. So at the end of the day, this is just saying "Conflicts may end up in court.", which is the status quo with or without a contract.

Not that I disagree with crossing it out - that is a good call. It just isn't as glaring of an evil clause as it might appear.

This is why I would recommend OP pay for an hour of a lawyers time to read over the contract and give some advice. Because what sounds scary is often meaningless and what sounds benign is often actually fairly unreasonable. If you aren't experienced reading contracts, it is worth the cost to get some help.

valenterry• 5 years ago

You are probably right. But then the question is: why do they write it into the contract from the beginning.

One reason might be to have the non-legal but moral upperhand: "Hey, don't be angry - you agreed to these conditions when you signed the contract."

Even if they don't matter in court, I think asking to strike these parts is still good idea. And be it just to see how they react to your suggestion.

chrisbennet2• 5 years ago

What I really objected to, was that I would be liable for estimated loss of profits.

I can usually handle 1 or 2 page contracts but when I see something like this, "What other thing are in here." and I give it to my lawyer.

2rsf2• 5 years ago

IANAL but in some places (or at least in Israel) there's a subtle difference between signing a standard contract and asking for changes when it gets to court. It doesn't mean you shouldn't ask for changes but at least give it another thought and consult a lawyer

yuriko• 5 years ago

/r/legaladvice

eli• 5 years ago

If you want specific legal advice there really isn't a substitute for asking a lawyer.

traceroute66• 5 years ago

Its rather simple really.

Question: Are you willing to post the entire employment contract unredacted on the internet (or email it to some John Doe you don't know) ?

Yes ? Fine. Maybe you might get some reasonable ideas.

No ? Well, go see a lawyer. Since anyone offering you advice without sight of the unredacted document is simply talking out of their backside and taking guesses in the dark.

eschneider• 5 years ago

Lawyer. Lawyer. Lawyer.

If you have questions about your employment contract, spend a few bucks for an hour or two of legal consult who knows the laws in your jurisdiction.

If you have real questions, this is the (long term) inexpensive way to get things answered.

psyklic• 5 years ago

A lawyer is the best idea -- they deal with these things every day. Once upon a time, I received advice from trusted non-lawyers and ended up in a very bad situation. Since then, I have passed most contracts by lawyers first.

2rsf2• 5 years ago

I am happy to live in Sweden where work contracts are one page of simple language

Ask HN: Is there anywhere to get help with employment contracts?

Related Stories