Apple refuses to engrave ‘liberate’ protest slogan on HK customer’s Apple Pencil

Are you using an iPhone or Mac? If yes, why don't you start with yourself. Apple exists because consumers love and buy their products - irrespective of their policy decisions.

reallydontask3• 6 years ago

I'm forced to use a Mac at work. What should I do? look for another job?

janpot• 6 years ago

and if no?

Companies need to be held accountable, regardless of who buys their stuff. Stop blaming common people for the crimes of megacorps.

malux852• 6 years ago

You can appreciate the engineering and craft of a product while not agreeing with the policy decisions of the company that created it. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

You can symbolically decide to boycott the company and not use it's products, but in the case of apple and their systems, this does a lot more damage to the individual than the company.

(tongue in cheek) and have you seen the alternatives?!?!?!

coldtea8• 6 years ago

What about?

(a) It was an ad, not a political platform.

(b) Even as an ad, the message was "Give average users the ability to use computers, don't just have them for technical people and businesses" which Apple still abides to this day. It wasn't about the same message as 1984 the book.

justinzollars• 6 years ago

The 21st century will be the Chinese century

bamboozled5• 6 years ago

Feels like it is already? Look at the state of the "union", bunch of people screaming at each other over mask wearing and conspiracy theories, what a sad state of affairs.

mrtksn• 6 years ago

I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not, however their way of doing things certainly is on the winning side. Even the USA is trying to ban apps and articles for national security reasons. You can't start directly by making companies afraid of engraving something questionable on a pencil, you start with baby steps. Some time later everyone becomes a patriot or a traitor, then you can have companies self censoring engravings on pencils so they don't get the traitor label.

fwiwm2c4• 6 years ago

"Liberate" is different from "Liberate HKers". Please make the topic headline more accurate. And it is obvious why Apple will not allow this in China/HK.

mola• 6 years ago

Obvious how?

berkes• 6 years ago

It was not misleading for me. My immediate thought was: click through to find out what that 'liberate slogan' is. N=1

newbie578• 6 years ago

I thought Apple was "socially aware"?

tibbydudeza2• 6 years ago

Steve Jobs was never the idealist like Wozniak - sure he wanted to build great consumer products but wanted to nickle and dime you for it.

mns• 6 years ago

Well they did remove the charger to help the environment and indirectly help society...

differentView• 6 years ago

Misleading headline. He was trying to engrave "LIBERATE HKERS".

neetrain2• 6 years ago

Where is it trying to mislead to?

That means, it is natural that Apple refused "LIBERATE HKERS" and "Liberate" is not? I can't see the difference.

ponker• 6 years ago

"Liberate" doesn't bother China who Apple is heavily reliant on?

villgax2• 6 years ago

Everyone got it, what difference does that make regarding the censorship by local employees?

EvilEy3• 6 years ago

Company refuses to do what's bad for business, news at 10.

thih92• 6 years ago

I was confused by the title, at first I thought they refused to engrave the word “liberate”.

bmcn2020• 6 years ago

isn't...that what happened? at least, that's part of the phrase:

...The customer, alias Mr. Chan, told Apple Daily that he got a call from an Apple employee on Wednesday saying that their “higher-ups didn’t approve” of his proposed inscription, “Liberate HKERS.”

thih92• 6 years ago

I meant that based on the title I thought they refused to engrave the word “liberate”.

As in: somebody wanted to engrave just the word "liberate" and Apple refused.

adrianh• 6 years ago

Similar story: Back in 2001, Jonah Peretti requested the word "sweatshop" engraved on his Nike shoes. They refused the request, and it became a Thing.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/nike-id-sweatshop-e-ma...

Peretti later went on to found BuzzFeed.

gherkinnn• 6 years ago

I’ve always wondered how much human intervention they add to the engraving.

“cunt” can’t even be submitted, but “c u n t” could be last time I tried. Didn’t order it, just had a laugh. One could also go with Scunthorpe and add some Tipex.

(Yes, I’m twelve and think that’s funny)

On a related note: a few months ago I read an article about how Disney(?) tried to sensor “bad words” in one of their Habbo-Hotel like apps for kids. Starting with blacklists, moving to whitelists, then trying a scratch-like building blocks. People would start to arrange sofas to talk to each other. You can’t really stop it.

Can’t find it anymore though.

nbzso5• 6 years ago

It is simple: Don't vote for Apple with your money. Especially iPhones. But wait they are tinkering with search engine project. They will support freedom of speech, or not. Interesting times we live in, very interesting.:)

onion2k• 6 years ago

Don't vote for Apple with your money.

That's a good approach to showing a company you don't approve of what they're doing, but in the case of tech who should people use instead? Every tech company is involved with China on some level (if not directly then their suppliers are); they all do things that support the Chinese government.

I agree that Apple are wrong here, but I don't see how buying from another company that's also wrong solves anything.

nbzso5• 6 years ago

Yes I agree, this is nearly impossible but let me try to think for a moment. I am long time Apple user, and can remember a time, when this company checked all my professional boxes. Clean industrial design, user friendly interface, high quality pro software (Final Cut Studio, Soundtrack Pro, Motion, Shake, etc), UNIX based, perfect ergonomic features and port connectivity. Long hardware life (I use in my home music studio Apple Cinema 30" and it still is working perfectly) may be best industrial design for display ever. So, did I find resemblance in Apple of today? No. Today Apple is money printing machine with ultra polished marketing promotion and clever cost cutting strategy in manufacturing processes. Today Apple is focused on keeping the profit top spot. Yes I still use Mac OS, but more and more lean towards Linux based desktop. I see a future for creative people away from dichotomy of Mac/Windows boxes. There are enough new software (DaVinci Resolve, Blender) what is missing is someone like Affinity to port their apps to Linux and we will have a good start. May be if we buy Linux phones as early adopters, things will change somewhat, I don't know. What I know is that we as professionals must take action and stop closing our eyes, I personally share with everybody my point of view. We are good at influencing our clients, friends. In the old Apple era, I have turned a lot of people from Windows to Mac.

bamboozled5• 6 years ago

Not everyone, this is likely going to be my new phone: https://www.fairphone.com/en/

I was also thinking of an iPhone 12, I don't think I'll bother now.

fsflover• 6 years ago

but I don't see how buying from another company that's also wrong solves anything.

Depends on the company: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24881988

coldtea8• 6 years ago

Don't vote for Apple with your money. Especially iPhones.

And buy what? Google phones? Made in China as well. Plus all the shady stuff they do globally, much worse than Apple. Huawei, Xiaomi and co would probably be no-gos too. Samsung? Is SK is much better? Had been a dictatorship for most post WWII period, and transitioned to a kinda democracy around 2000. And they use Google's OS anyway.

Companies make hardware. Buy them or not. Don't look to Apple or Google for politics.

US companies should also play nice by the rules of the country their are in, -- not what the US thinks they should do based on their plans/thinking for the country. It's not their business to interfere with local politics pro or against.

nbzso5• 6 years ago

https://www.ifixit.com/News/45921/is-this-the-end-of-the-rep...

passerby11112• 6 years ago

SK transitioned to a kinda democracy around 2000? As a Korean I am deeply offended. Korea got to where it is now with hard work from the previous generations, not from forcing ethnic minorities into forced labour. If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk about it. Please don't spread fake information to justify your misguided opinions.

tibbydudeza2• 6 years ago

Why is this news ???.

notRobot2• 6 years ago

Do I like this? No. Do I approve of this? No. But does it surprise me? Also no.

Apple has time and time again chosen to take the side of oppressive regimes (by banning apps in HK that help protesters, forcing Telegram to remove chat groups that help protesters in Belarus, etc).

It is to be expected. In all such cases, the protestors are on the right side of history by fighting oppressive/authoritarian regimes.

But Apple (like most corporations) only really cares about money at the end of the day. If they don't do stuff like this, it'll just lead to them being banned from operating in these countries. Then they won't be able to make money. It is what it is.

Long gone are the days in which Google refused to operate in China because it was asked to censor searches.

The only reason Google search doesn't operate in China today is because leads to massive backlash each time they try to go back on that decision. But if Google's current management had been in place back then, they would have never made that stand in the first place.

Ethical public companies simply cannot exist in this world.

fierarul• 6 years ago

At what point is Apple's policy on these matters equivalent to IBM's involvement in 1940s Germany?

supernova87a4• 6 years ago

That is really a stretch. Need a sense of proportion.

At that point, we should all first be protesting Microsoft Excel and Windows software, Ford Motors, all of our Wyoming coal producing mines, Boeing, and more, for providing products that much more directly enable China to do what it's doing, than someone's inability to write a word on a pencil.

finnthehuman• 6 years ago

2017. But I'm just picking when Human Rights Watch reported on the internment camps. I'm sure I could be convinced that the date is earlier.

I don't understand why everyone thinks they would boldly oppose Nazis like an action star hero, but when millions are imprisoned in concentration camps in China they're kind of like "meh."

simion314• 6 years ago

I am also not surprise that when other company does this same thing the comments and votes/flags are much different.

dahele• 6 years ago

"Reimagining Capitalism" by Rebecca Henderson is an eye-opening book that outlines very clearly defined steps that would force corporations to take more social responsibility.

Here's my take on the book:

Capitalism at its best works wonderfully, but the checks and balances that are needed for capitalism to work for the good of society are broken. Most countries across the world do not have a truly free press or even semi-functional democracy. We're hurtling towards a climate disaster, with no signs of slowing down, as well as facing massive global inequality.

Corporations are succeeding at present, but the single-minded focus on pleasing shareholders above all else is not sustainable and _will_ come back to hurt everyone, not least corporations. It's a classic case of the prisoner's dilemma - each corporation individually does better by ignoring societal damage, but if all of them do so, the whole system will eventually collapse - whether due to climate disaster, a collapse of buying power from impoverished masses, or a global pandemic.

Henderson argues that "only the relentless pressure of the free market can drive the kind of transformative innovation at scale [that we require]". The solution is to first fix democracy - get money out of politics, and fix the voting system. A representative government can agree on common goals and implement polices that harness the free market to work towards these agreed goals - eg. a carbon tax. Henderson also puts hope in "collective action" - corporations working together voluntarily, towards common stated goals. I'm a little sceptical of this last part.

Azeem Azhar (Exponential View) did a great interview with Henderson - https://hbr.org/podcast/2020/06/reimagining-capitalism-for-a...

bamboozled5• 6 years ago

Thanks for sharing, will checkout the podcast.

ceilingcorner2• 6 years ago

It's hard not to be cynical about Apple's supposed commitment to social justice issues in America when they do stuff like this abroad. Apple under Tim Cook may be succeeding financially, but their hypocrisy is becoming too much to ignore. At least Jobs had the decency to try and be apolitical.

classified• 6 years ago

If I should ever buy an Apple Pencil, I will order a "Liberate HKers" inscription for moral support. But then, I don't live in Chinese jurisdiction.

Corporations won't support us in the development of civil society, that's our own job. They will abide by the rules of whoever is in power in their respective regions of operation. Their purpose is to make money and if that requires that they engage in slavery, torture, or mass murder, they will do just that. Consult the history books for examples.

supernova87a4• 6 years ago

If you're looking to a giant corporation's products to be a channel for the expression of your moral position, you're looking in the wrong places.

Just the fact you want to buy their products speaks more than any 8 letters you can choose to engrave / "personalize" your dollars with.

Go work to do real things, change real things. Corporations swing with the wind, and just as soon as they would support what movement you have this month, they might abandon the next. Do something that sticks.

ceilingcorner2• 6 years ago

If you're looking to a giant corporation's products to be a channel for the expression of your moral position, you're looking in the wrong places.

That seems to be precisely what half of SV is looking for.

qazpot• 6 years ago

Slavoj Zizek makes a great point about this. He points out that starbucks donates some portion of the money you pay for coffee to alleviate poverty.

But you as a customer are buying expensive coffee as well freedom from guilt of buying expensive coffee while a large number of people in world are poor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P18UK5IMRDI

supernova87a4• 6 years ago

I don't know whether it's the same topic (will watch later) but there was the economist's observation a few years ago that when you pay $0.10 extra for organic/free trade coffee in your cup, only less than $0.01 goes to the actual coffee farmer and even the related supply chain labor. (calculating what the coffee serving price difference should be from the market price of free trade beans per pound vs. normal)

The rest of the 9c is just price discrimination of the coffee chain being able to see that you value the idea of supporting organic coffee farming and are willing to pay that much more, even though it doesn't translate into anywhere close to that for the actual people.

Edit: you can check it yourself -- Fairtrade coffee reports to be sold at $1.80 per pound versus $1.40. A typical cup of coffee / shot espresso uses 15 grams. The cost difference is <$0.01.

(I don't know if this is still sold as an option, not a coffee drinker myself)

notRobot2• 6 years ago

While I agree with the first two paragraphs of your comment, it's rather naïve to think this:

Go work to do real things, change real things.

There's little that people outside HK can do, and those HK citizens who can do something are already doing so by protesting, although it appears to (very unfortunately) be futile.

ashleshbiradar• 6 years ago

Right yes, lets totally absolve corporations by normalizing their behavior and instead call out individuals trying to exercise their freedom to write whatever they want on a product they are paying for.

supernova87a4• 6 years ago

Anyone is totally free to carve/emboss/sharpie/sew those words into the pencil/shoes/car that they buy. No one is stopping you. And I think that would be more of a personal statement than having it drawn by a company's factory laser on an automated production line.

You want the company to say the words along with you and agree with your position.

But you've already lost. It's a bit like falling into the trap of brand advertising that screams, "Be yourself"... by buying one of our products.

I'll just say again, if you put your faith into a corporation reflecting your moral convictions, you will often be disappointed.

pacificleo12• 6 years ago

here's to the crazy ones

dusted• 6 years ago

Well, I guess Apple really do Think Different.

At least different than the rest of the civilized world, but that's not too surprising either given their history.

coldtea8• 6 years ago

Because the rest of the civilized world (including all other US businesses) doesn't do business like crazy with China?

Or doesn't do business with the US, a bigger global bully, with active wars and occupations, etc?

villgax2• 6 years ago

Some next level censorship by local Apple employees, probably don't want to get caught in crosshairs after it blows up

bamboozled5• 6 years ago

I was thinking of buying a new iPad, I'm pretty turned off now.

Disgusted really.

benlumen• 6 years ago

"The higher-ups" are screening engravement messages? Call me naive but that sounds like nonsense. At least, it SHOULD be nonsense.

If true they must be terrified of upsetting the CCP.

unityByFreedom3• 6 years ago

My guess is the engraving happens in China, so not so surprising that the CCP keeps a tight grip on the wording lest its citizens see it.

AnonC• 6 years ago

If this, and other decisions by Apple for China makes you upset or angry, do email the CEO Tim Cook (his email address is easily found online) and let him know your displeasure and that you’re not going to buy things from the company as much as you used to. I don’t think he reads HN or any other forum regularly.

Quote back to him his own statements in interviews where he has emphasized that Apple supports human rights. Also quote other areas where Apple has spoken for the people (like “Dreamers”, for example). Ask why Apple is being so hypocritical.

Well written correspondence can get through, and can make a difference down the line.

ryankrage77• 6 years ago

Surely it will go straight to spam? He can't possibly be manually reviewing emails sent to his public email address. And if he does have some intern reviewing them, they aren't going to forward your criticism.

TearsInTheRain• 6 years ago

This is the chilling effect of our close economic ties to oppressive regimes. I dont know if we can expect Apple to stand up to China. I think our government needs to do more to set the parameters of our economic interactions with them.

unityByFreedom3• 6 years ago

I'm guessing the engraving happens in China. No way the CCP lets that happen. It's like ordering a set of "free hk" t-shirts from a Chinese printer.

Apple refuses to engrave ‘liberate’ protest slogan on HK customer’s Apple Pencil

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