My National Security Letter Gag Order (2007)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/22/AR2007032201882.html

by boredguy8 • 15 years ago

307 60 15 years ago

nbpoole• 15 years ago

Since that editorial was published (back in 2007), the person who wrote it, Nicholas Merrill, has been "partially un-gagged": he is now able to talk publicly about portions of the case.

A followup Washington Post article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08...

He also did an IAmA post on reddit, which has a lot of information: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/fjfby/iama_director_of...

(Since reddit is down right now, here's the cached Google version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%...)

---

Edit: Wanted to add a link to a later followup post he made on Reddit, talking about his plans to start a "Non-profit ISP and Teleco": http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/fkndx/update_nat...

(And the Google cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%...)

---

Edit: And in case people are curious about the actual court case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doe_v._Ashcroft

tejmin• 15 years ago

He did also do an AMA on reddit.

Edit: I see you added the link. This article, for everyone else's info, was done Mar 23, 07 d:D

boredguy8• 15 years ago

Sorry for the old link. I usually check dates more carefully, but this was sent to me by a newsie so I didn't pay as close attention.

Thanks for the additional info, though: having the follow-up links makes me less sad I posted it.

DanielRibeiro• 15 years ago

Old, but the aftermath is really relevant. I am really glad of this post, and the amazing comments it ensued.

uxp• 15 years ago

He also did a fairly decent talk at the most recent Chaos Conf, 23c3:

http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2010/27c3-4263-en-resist...

zacharypinter• 15 years ago

Here's a video of a talk Nicholas Merril gave about the gag order:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6xsv4azzpc

Zak4• 15 years ago

I have to wonder whether a person is legally obligated under such an order to actively hide the existence of the NSL request. Does he really have to lie to his clients, friends and family when asked directly about it, or would "I can't answer that" satisfy the letter of the law while giving the asker a strong clue as to the answer to their question?

eli2• 15 years ago

My understanding is that he was not allowed to communicate its existence to anyone else through any means.

Saying "I can't answer that" is effectively disclosing that you are gagged, which is not allowed.

It's a totally insane prospect.

Zak4• 15 years ago

You have a point there, but "I won't answer that" doesn't actually communicate anything and seems like a viable alternative.

koenigdavidmj• 15 years ago

There was a backup site, rsync.net, which sent weekly announcements saying 'we did not get a National Security Letter this week'.

rwmj• 15 years ago

Surely this is against the US first amendment?

viggity• 15 years ago

this is not hacker news.

Anechoic• 15 years ago

As noted by another post, the guy who received the NSL ran an ISP and the NSL was a request to turn over electronic records regarding the ISP. If that is of no concern to hackers, I don't know what is.

ascendant• 15 years ago

The US government trampling all over your rights, digital and RL is very much a concern for everyone, hackers included.

wtn• 15 years ago

While I think the government policy is questionable, I am also concerned by the willingness of communications companies to respond to requests without warrants.

jeffreyg• 15 years ago

(2007)

imrehg• 15 years ago

As a non-lawyer, what would be the situation of this person is asked in the court about some of their actions that is explained by the existence of the gag order? Would "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" override that gag order, or they had to somehow withhold that information?

mdaniel• 15 years ago

I don't know if you were asking a rhetorical question, but my opinion is that if you were in court under those circumstances, it's likely you are going to jail. If the FBI finds out you talked, you will be jailed [as I presume that's the threat]; if the court finds out you lied, you will be jailed for perjury. Only if you perjure yourself but don't get caught will you escape.

msg• 15 years ago

You would take the Fifth Amendment and invoke your right against self incrimination.

demallien• 15 years ago

Nah, 5th amendment protections...

billswift2• 15 years ago

Even from a lawyer, any answer to that would just be opinion, since it hasn't been tested in court yet. I would tend to think testimony in court would override a gag order, but US courts are notoriously unpredictable.

billybob2• 15 years ago

Testimony in court had BETTER be paramount. If the NSA's secret orders can force court proceedings to be conducted falsely, we are in big trouble.

Although, if I were in this situation, I would ask to speak with the judge privately.

jdp23• 15 years ago

Remember that the several clauses of PATRIOT Act will sunset unless they're renewed by the end of May. Once Congress returns (the week of May 2) expect floor fights in both the House and Senate.

It's a great opportunity to introduce reforms -- including NSL's and gag orders. EFF has more at https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=Us...

megamark16• 15 years ago

I must be getting old. After reading this article I wrote an email to my representative. I'm pretty sure that's a checkbox on the form I fill out when I get a physical:

Have you ever sent a strongly worded letter to an elected official? []Yes []No

ck22• 15 years ago

Fun fact: under Obama the rate of "national security letters" has only increased as well as the number of whistleblowers prosecuted.

Not saying he personally directed the FBI to increase, just saying it has and nothing has stopped it.

But he has personally sought to expand NSL powers.

some background:

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/10/obama-sides-republicans...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/12/us/politics/12leak.html?_r...

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/16...

http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=135889

http://www.nonprofitquarterly.org/index.php?option=com_conte...

And Manning is in serious, serious trouble under Obama, I will be amazed if he gets only life, because they purposely just added an "aiding the enemy" charge which carries a death sentence:

http://www.salon.com/news/wikileaks/?story=/opinion/greenwal...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/04/21/obama.interruption/

enko2• 15 years ago

Not to sound disrespectful, but it's been obvious for some time that these issues are systemic and have very little to do with who is democrat or republican, labor or liberal, tory or whig.

ck22• 15 years ago

Oh I agree. It comes down to law enforcement on every level always abusing every power they are ever given, far beyond the original purpose - doesn't matter if they are left or right thinking, federal, state or local. It's just always surprising to see the left do it because it seems counterintuitive.

I also think Senator Obama would be completely freaking out at President Obama.

anamax2• 15 years ago

> Not to sound disrespectful, but it's been obvious for some time that these issues are systemic and have very little to do with who is democrat or republican, labor or liberal, tory or whig.

While that may be true, you don't hear it nearly as much when a Repub or Tory is in the executive office.

binarymax• 15 years ago

A sign similar to this was proposed by librarians:

"The FBI has not served this library a national security letter. Please watch for removal of this sign."

Volscio• 15 years ago

Please date old articles in the subject line. i.e. "My National Security Letter Gag Order (2007)"

Cushman• 15 years ago

Outrageous proposal time: NSL DDoS.

Let's say I own a business. Every week, I get two dozen letters purporting to be from the FBI requesting information on my customers. Some of the requests are clearly ridiculous; others might be genuine. If they are genuine, I'm forbidden from discussing them over the phone; the requests aren't a matter of public record, so I can't look them up; I don't have a secure fax, I run an internet company. I could tell my lawyer about it, but he'd be subject to the same restrictions as me.

My only options are either to submit an individual request for verification for each letter by delivery service, or comply with every request I receive, deluging the FBI with frivolous documents. Either way, thousands of companies attempting to comply with dozens of such requests every week and the secret police system would quickly grind to a halt.

To be followed shortly by a lengthy prison sentence — if they're lucky — for anyone participating in the fabrication of government documents, of course. Still, it's a fascinating prospect.

bobds• 15 years ago

Your proposal has some interesting implications. There's a bunch of services offering web-to-snail-mail facilities. Some of them even offer an API, so this could in theory be automated.

bradleyland• 15 years ago

Someone has to pay the bill, which means someone will go to jail. The only reason online DDoS attacks are perpetrated successfully is because of the relative ease of execution and the anonymity provided by an internet connection. Still, even with the loosely connected identifying information available about your internet connection, the FBI is issuing warrants [1] for participants in recent DDoS attacks. A paper campaign's only chance for success would be if individuals physically printed and mailed the letters anonymously by posting them in a public mailbox. Investigators would have to rely on traditional investigatory methods like finger prints and mysterious printer identification dots [2], which work much slower.

1 - http://www.google.com/search?q=fbi+ddos+anonymous+warrant

2 - http://boingboing.net/2008/10/23/howto-read-the-secre.html

shareme• 15 years ago

a comparison..a person entering the US military and getting a the lowest level of clearance has less punishment if caught disclosing than these NCLs..

__david__• 15 years ago

Having never seen the contents of a national security letter, I wonder what the ramifications would be if you opened it and read it aloud for the first time in front of a large (or small) group of people. Or perhaps have it read aloud to you in front of a large group of people. Certainly you can't be expected to know that is going to gag you until you've read it once and by that time it would be too late.

Is it worded such that the whole group of people would be gagged? There's got to be some interesting way to circumvent it.

My National Security Letter Gag Order (2007)

Related Stories