How to get a job at a startup if you aren’t a developer

http://estromberg.com/post/4778188872/how-to-get-a-job-at-a-startup-if-you-arent-a-developer

by bjonathan • 15 years ago

69 41 15 years ago

I imagine this his how non-devs feel when reading a lot of articles here. I have absolutely no idea what non-developers do at startups, and if I were having a dream where I was suddenly hired on in this position, it would feel like your average "showed up to class with no pants for final you didn't study for" nightmare.

brandnewlow• 15 years ago

The site _is_ called "Hacker News," not "Biz Guy News"...

...hmm, actually.

eru• 15 years ago

It used to be called "Startup News".

jsavimbi4• 15 years ago

"I have absolutely no idea what non-developers do at startups"

Disclaimer: developer at technology companies.

Well, they'd better know how to sell, and sell well, if they want to get a job in a lean business that simply doesn't have room for people who aren't contributing directly to the bottom line. Another position is that of business development. Soft skill, but really necessary to provide pre and post sales support when the company becomes large enough that the CEO/COO can no longer handhold each partner/client/vendor.

In my experience, marketing/hr/low-level product are always promotions given to the poor bastard who spent a year faking it as the office manager.

18pfsmt2• 15 years ago

The last VC-backed startup I worked at, the marketing people were 3 Harvard MBAs that kept the sales people away from the developers, and they helped us figure out what product features were most relevant to implement. They also got us the latest and greatest sample ASICs.

achompas• 15 years ago

Good article, especially #4 -- offer a concrete skill.

A good friend is applying for fashion retail jobs, and I've told her that showing your passion isn't enough. Everyone is passionate about fashion--the goal is to shape your experience so teams can understand why you're better than everyone else.

Related to #4: what are some good books on online analytics?

kylelibra• 15 years ago

Great post, incredibly helpful.

Especially number seven on the list. I get the feeling that any online job posting decreases your chances of getting noticed by a significant amount. I know in my company we only post stuff online because we feel obligated, we don't give those applicants nearly as much credence as we would someone who is referred by someone in our network.

enjo• 15 years ago

Which I'd hope you would state openly in the job posting. There is nothing more defeating for an applicant than to spend the time and energy putting together cover letters and tweaking the resume for your company, only to be disregarded from the start.

Lost_BiomedE• 15 years ago

“Any startup job you find on a job board will be one you don’t want.”

I wonder if this is true in areas where startups are not the in thing, like Houston Tx. There are some reasons why I think it may not apply, such as how conservative and big business the area is. But, I also know that I look to my network for partners and employees, so I am left uncertain on this point.

acconrad• 15 years ago

If you're not a developer, you should still learn how to code. At least showing that you're willing to learn goes a long way so you can help with even the little things, such as fixing pixels or checking in small bugs. Think of it another way: would you join a renewable energy startup if you didn't know some engineering (materials, chemistry, mechanical, electrical, et al) fundamentals? How do you think you would do if put into an interview?

estromberg• 15 years ago

I generally agree with this. Especially if you have plans to be a founder. Though there is an opportunity cost of learning anything, right? Would the time spent learning to code be better spent learning a different skill that would be more directly applicable to the job you are seeking? I think in some cases, yes.

ke• 15 years ago

Absolutely, HTML/CSS is a huge step in the right direction.

stevenj• 15 years ago

Should developers learn how to do customer service? Sales? Biz Dev? Design? HR?

ismarc• 15 years ago

Absolutely to all of the above. A developer's job is to determine what's actually wanted/needed, not what is exactly enumerated, especially in a startup. In addition, if a job needs done, a job needs done. A developer who can hop on a sales call, or do customer support when needed is invaluable in an startup environment.

DavidChouinard• 15 years ago

Sure they should.

A developer casually reading a few books/blogs could learn pretty much all those domains. The same can't be said of business guys doing the opposite.

mpk• 15 years ago

Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.

Learning about these domains allows you to talk to people in them. That allows you to educate people outside of the development group on the specifics of the product and get valuable feedback from them. This allows you to make a better product and at the same time gives you a foundation for doing Biz Dev.

Design is a bit different, but yes - learn the basics of that too and treat designers and design work as development unless your business plan is cranking out logos and t-shirts.

gersh3• 15 years ago

A non-developer needs to have some skill, which can't be automated by a computer. Such things include: design, writing, managing people, talking to customers, investors, money and relationships. If AI becomes capable of automating such tasks, their job may become obsolete.

pavel_lishin2• 15 years ago

> If AI becomes capable of automating such tasks, their job may become obsolete.

And factory automation and robotics have eliminated the needs for workers, yup.

gersh3• 15 years ago

The workers need to be able to automate stuff or manage people, who do. Many high-paid, unskilled factory jobs have disappeared. The jobs are doing things that can't be easily automated. The more automatable the lower the pay.

prpatel• 15 years ago

1) Learn how to code 2) ..... 3) Profit!

aridiculous3• 15 years ago

I had to learn most of this stuff on my own, but it's a very good summary to pass on to my friends. Seems like startups are getting more and more mainstream.

The problem is most college grads in non-technical fields generally don't have skills beyond being smart, maybe. I was one of them. This wouldn't be too much of an issue but most also don't like or aren't any good at selling. The way I see it, you have to do something technically tangible or you have the sell the lights out of stuff. If you can't do either, sad to say, you're fairly worthless in early stage companies.

gersh3• 15 years ago

You could be a good writer or designer. Video skills can be useful. Research skills can also be useful.

aridiculous3• 15 years ago

I'd agree with designer and possibly video, but I count those as technical skills depending on the type of startup.

Writing and research, I think, have to be bundled with other skillsets at the very early stages. If you have 2-3 people, you can't have a pure writer or researcher.

edw5192• 15 years ago

I know OP means well, but this is some of the most misguided advice I've ever seen on Hacker News...

1. Know the tech landscape better than anybody else

This is like saying, "Know God" or "Know the meaning of life". You'll be chasing down something elusive and nebulous while the rest of us are learning, building, and growing.

Also, you will never know anything better than anybody else, so just get that self-defeating thought out of your head.

2. Form an opinion and start a blog

If you've been there and done that, please share your experience. We're eager to hear about it. Otherwise, you should be listening, not talking. There are enough worthless blogs out there. Please don't add another one.

3. Be familiar with the startup culture - Each sport, industry, or college has a unique culture, with its own lingo, success stories, and taboos. Startup culture is no different.

2 things you can do with 4 possible scenarios:

a. Build stuff that delivers long term value to others and can sustain itself as a business

b. "fit in"

  - If you do both a. and b., great.
  - If you do a. and not b., no one will care that b. is missing.
  - If you do b. and not a., you're adding little or no value.
  - If you do neither a. or b., you're adding little or no value.

In other words "culture", "lingo", "success stories", "taboos", are all non-issues. Bullshit. They don't matter.

In the end, all that really matters (with rare exceptions) is a.

You can skip #3.

I’d also recommend hanging out on tech-heavy communities like Hacker News or Reddit. Observe how people interact. Pay close attention to which articles and comments get voted up or down. It will go a long way in figuring out what the startup culture sees as valuable. Decide if these values mesh with what you see as important.

Please don't do this. All you will learn is how a crowd behaves, which may or may not have anything to do with what really matters.

If you want to come to Hacker News to lurk and learn, welcome! But don't get caught up in what "the world thinks". This is a great recipe for the community to experience eternal September and for you to become just another poser.

4. Offer a concrete skill

99% of the work in a start-up is either building or selling & implementing. If you can do either well, great. If you can't, then learn how and forget all the rest of the bullshit in this post.

5. Take an internship

Good advice, actually, for #4 above.

6. Send cold emails

Please don't. Anywhere else that's called spam.

aridiculous3• 15 years ago

I agree with a couple of your points but I think you might be overreacting.

When the OP said to hang out at HN or learn all about the culture, that's really helpful for those who are completely unfamiliar with the whole industry. A lot of smart kids have never entered this world and it's a good primer. Just because they are new to startups doesn't make them hopeless -- I arrived a couple years ago and spent a few months just getting acquainted through tireless immersion.

Cold emails are fine, if they have an edge to them and are informed and targeted. If you get emails from people who clearly put there heart into writing it, I think it's at least worth a quick reply. You're not a celebrity.

And how else do you expect someone to get into the industry without some cold emails or calls? As someone who just got their foot in the door, I can definitively say one works at least twice as hard outside the industry than when one gets a job. Have some respect for that nonpaid effort, I say.

That said, one should always be building up a defined skillset concurrently.

edw5192• 15 years ago

I agree with a couple of your points but I think you might be overreacting.

You're probably right and if so, I apologize. I guess it's just my way of venting my frustration with so many people talking when they should be listening. To me, OP's post just seems like feeding fuel to that fire.

I would never want to discourage anyone from becoming part of our community. It's just that some ways are much better than others.

And how else do you expect someone to get into the industry without some cold emails or calls?

Networking. Better to get out there without an agenda, meet people, and grow. Most of us would much rather meet someone and get to know them than to just delete another unsolicited email among hundreds of others.

Whether you email, network, or do something else, here's the most important thing: have something of value to offer, and offer it. That will get you noticed.

That said, one should always be building up a defined skillset concurrently.

Definitely! This never ends.

Timothee• 15 years ago

Regarding #4, and in particular "If it’s more of a product role, build something!"

How would that work for a non-developer?

By paying someone to do it? (not necessarily easy. Not everyone has enough entrepreneurial spirit to invest in their own idea, while still being valuable to a startup) By making mock-ups, specs and publishing them somewhere? It would seem fine to me, but I wonder if some could see that as being an "idea guy" for not having something tangible and working to show.

Dramatize• 15 years ago

What I'm doing is relaunching an older website that's already been developed - but not promoted/maintained for the last two years.

This means I can work on what I'm good at (design and marketing) and use any money coming in to pay a developer to make any changes I can't.

Was it Neil from CrazyEgg that does something similar? I remember hearing something like that on a Mixergy interview.

donofrip2• 15 years ago

I get a sense of a little non-developer hate going on below... so fair disclosure, I am not a developer. I am an aspiring entrepreneur, and yes, I am working on a web-based company. I also work on Wall Street, so I apparently chose the other option Eric to which alludes.

The value add of a non-developer to a startup is pretty simple--they bring a different perspective than a developer does. Diversity is a good thing. I'm working on building something that I believe would be enormously useful, and it approaches a problem in a way that hasn't been done online before. I think the reason I was able to come up with this idea was precisely because I'm not part of the "online" community. There are certain ways things are done when building an online business that have become part of the "culture" to which the article speaks. Being able to approach a problem from a point of view without a preconceived or subconscious notion can add enormous value to a startup. That said, I am becoming part of this community because I do need the technical expertise to help build the product and it is easier to find someone to partner with than learn to program myself (although I do know some).

It is the same as growing up reading and writing a western language. You don't even consider the notion that text would be written or read in another direction than left to right. Having a Chinese friend at a young age would keep you thinking in different and more creative ways.

wglb2• 15 years ago

In startups, perspective, ideas, point of view all pale in importance to execution.

donofrip2• 15 years ago

Obviously execution is critical; however, I cannot agree with you that everything else pales in comparison to execution. You can execute "successfully", but if what you build isn't something the client wants, then you're wasting your time.

Depending on what you're developing, a business side perspective could be invaluable. The financial services industry is full of inefficiency, as an example to illustrate my point. I worked in equity research for a while and we published reports that were simply pdfs of excel files (there are some publishing tools out there like bluematrix). There are huge opportunities here for a better publishing platform that is easy to use for someone who is not technologically savvy (like research analysts). Having someone with the insight into the industry could be very useful and would help a developer identify and focus on developing and designing functions that would be useful to the client. I'm sure more than one developer has wasted time developing something only to get FEEDBACK (also know as perspective) from the client (often business related when not a developer end-product) that the functionality doesn't match what they need or expect.

I just cannot agree with your point of view here. In my opinion, ideas and perspective are important, but then again, I am new to this. Can someone explain to me why execution should be held above all else?

evanprodromou• 15 years ago

Step 1: learn to program.

vishaldpatel• 15 years ago

Hmm.. objective of any startup is to survive. This requires hard skills:

-> Being able to build the product / service.

-> Being able to sell.

-> Being able to market creatively (on a low budget).

-> Being able to take care of operations, legal, accounting, hiring.

Want to work for a start up in a non-technical role? No problem! Show em' that you can do do one or more of the other essentials better than the incumbents, who are probably too busy taking care of the technical bits anyway.

gnosis• 15 years ago

Just because you're not a developer doesn't mean you lack technical skills.

Startups often need to fill some non-developer, technical roles, like QA team members and sysadmins.

How to get a job at a startup if you aren’t a developer

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