Would you build a pure client-side JavaScript App using Pageforest?

http://www.pageforest.com

by mckoss • 15 years ago

15 41 15 years ago

jporta3• 15 years ago

I don't think so. Also, since we're at it (I took some time to read the whole frontpage) "(GET, PUT, and POST)" are standard HTTP (not HTML) methods.

mckoss15• 15 years ago

Oops. Thanks - I'll correct that. Any elaboration on why this service would or would not appeal to you?

jporta3• 15 years ago

I don't see any obvious benefit in using it.

Relying on the the platform to handle the user authentication and document storage is something I wouldn't be comfortable with, though I'd use it as an option (as facebook connect, google or any other authentication service out there).

In general, I think this would have been a hit 5 years ago. Now, with services like heroku, phpfog, app engine, even github having free plans, the "hosting" part seems to be solved, and something pretty similar can be done these days with some sparkle from FB Connect and a bit of rails/php for the client side storage.

Don't get me wrong, I like this kind of services because [I think] they push innovation in different directions. It's just that I think there are a few pretty well stablished and provide similar (or equivalent) functionality and I just don't see any obvious advantage between this service and the others, though I see a few drawbacks.

rmason2• 15 years ago

I don't see any mention of database. If you can't save or retrieve records that's kind of limiting, no?

kazoolist• 15 years ago

quoting:

What Services does Pageforest Provide? <snip> Cloud-based Document Storage - Each Pageforest user is given storage for their own document collection in the Cloud. When a user authorizes your application, your App can create and store documents to the user's collection.

rmason2• 15 years ago

Document storage? Saving an html page to a directory could be document storage.

They asked for comment and I think they need to be more specific that's all. If they're using the GAE db imho they should say so.

ktsmith9• 15 years ago

To walk a little further down that path, if there is database access how is validation done since none of the client code can be trusted to have been executed and all input from the client should be considered suspect?

mckoss15• 15 years ago

User authentication is handled by the server, and then a session cookie is created on your application sub-domain.

App writers don't have to worry about authentication - just redirect the user to the www.pageforest.com/sign-in/appid page, and the will redirect back to the app if the user has granted the application permissions to save on their behalf (much like a 3-legged oAuth).

mckoss15• 15 years ago

Your JavaScript application uses a REST protocol, or, more usually, or client JavaScript storage wrapper:

http://wiki.pageforest.com/#pageforest-api/storage

Simpler apps will save their state in a document created for the user (up to 1 MB). But you can do more using the "Blob" storage interface.

flipdeadshot• 15 years ago

No; no I wouldn't.

mckoss15• 15 years ago

Please? ;-)

andrewjshults• 15 years ago

Possibly using the open source platform, fairly unlikely on a hosted version. Why? I think it's almost certain that at some point I'm going to need some configuration or tweaks to the server side code that are application specific and cannot be done in client side code (validation, heavy lifting or secret sauce things). As nice as it would be to not worry about the service side code, once you get past the basics of a CRUD app, the server side become rather important.

Off the top of my head the biggest early concern I'd have would be how are you going to handle server side validation, since relying solely on client side validation is pretty much just as good an no validation at all. Especially complex validation involving multiple fields. The next would be interacting with things like third party APIs that have access keys that need to be protected or just can't be accessed from the client (because they don't offer a JSONP interface).

mckoss15• 15 years ago

Yes, we have our own user validation system (a challenge/response protocol). We actually validate you on the pageforest.com domain, and then transfer a session cookie to your application - so your app never sees the user password/secret.

I would say our sweet spot is smaller, document-centric apps (games, puzzles, document editors). Anything that can use a simple document persistence model.

drcode6• 15 years ago

Google App Engine (and other cloud providers) also places limits on how much you can tweak the server side code. Clearly, there will always be apps that require some crazy server-side C code or whatever, but for 99% of apps all that matters is whether pageforest has exposed enough in the API to take care of the important stuff (validation, etc.)

I'm not saying their API is good enough for this, since they just launched, but from a theoretical standpoint I think the concept is sound.

drcode6• 15 years ago

I just want to say I have been wanting this forever and can't believe no one has provided this before- I'm annoyed you guys beat me to this type of product.

This is exactly how a web app should be created- All the apps I've been creating lately are 95% client-side javascript and 5% of annoying server code that could obviously have been implemented using a generic REST-based data store.

I will be using pageforest extensively (Assuming it's not buggy, etc :-) Hats off to you guys for being first to market on this!

mckoss15• 15 years ago

Don't be hater ... come work with us! ;-)

Seriously, thanks for giving it a try - I'd love to get your feedback on problems you have using the platform...

HerraBRE2• 15 years ago

What are the key similarities or differences between this and http://unhosted.org/ ? Considered collaborating?

drcode6• 15 years ago

I agree there's definite overlap in their models, from the look of it- But there are still clear differences between these two concepts, with differing strengths and weaknesses.

mckoss15• 15 years ago

Thanks for the pointer to unhosted - I've not seen this before. Sounds like a standard protocol to separate application from data storage - pretty similar to the Pageforest model - except federated!

HerraBRE2• 15 years ago

You're welcome! Glad to see you've already pinged the mailing list (I lurk).

Friday night networking! :-)

olegp• 15 years ago

I really like the concept, reminds me of CouchApps (http://couchapp.org/).

That being said, I agree with andrewjshults that sooner or later you will need to write server side code, even if it is to proxy client side requests to another domain.

mckoss, would it be worth making a server side implementation of your service for http://www.akshell.com - a server side JavaScript platform with syncrhonous I/O and a browser based IDE. We're open sourcing the whole stack, so there would be a lot less lock in than with AppEngine. Drop me a line on our mailing list if you're interested: http://groups.google.com/group/akshell

Would you build a pure client-side JavaScript App using Pageforest?

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