Google reportedly peeks into Android data to gain edge over third-party apps

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/07/android-user-data-gives-google-edge-over-third-party-apps-report-says/

by pjmlp • 6 years ago

324 126 6 years ago

arstechnica.com

elisharobinson• 6 years ago

why AB test when your competition can do it for you ... SMH come on google

dynjo• 6 years ago

Honestly is anyone surprised..

fxtentacle3• 6 years ago

If you fill a trough, pigs will come.

We have this saying in Germany about data collection. What it means is you can usually assume that given enough time, companies will do the worst with the data that exists, so the only reasonable approach is to never collect so much data in the first place.

ssss11• 6 years ago

I like that saying.

And i agree companies should only be allowed to gather the minimal data necessary in a given situation.

rapnie• 6 years ago

And isn't this done across all google services - those products that are comfortably run within millions of businesses - to gain valuable market insights / biz intelligence? Who knows.

0xy• 6 years ago

"The API doesn't obtain any information about in-app activity and our collection of this data is disclosed to and controllable by users"

Google is excellent at this kind of word maneuver, designed to confuse and mislead.

Google gets confronted about an egregious practice, and a PR representative responds with "well, we would absolutely never do [slightly worse unrelated thing]". This happens over and over again.

They get caught, MSM blindly repeats Google PR talking points with enormous spin and PR manuevering, and everyone forgets until the next scandal.

0xWTF• 6 years ago

I have to say, my experience working with Google is that they actually resist the acquisition of information that's not in the public domain in a lot of ways. I've seen them fund another company's development team to do work, even buying the other company hardware for the task, just to avoid the data. I've seen them consciously exclude engineering tools you'd think are right up their alley, because the tools would acquire data which, while entirely in-scope and on-mission, could be considered too sensitive in some context.

If they're collecting this data, I strongly suspect they feel obligated to, maybe even compelled too. Possibly for purposes like app security, user security, OS security, user experience, etc.

the_pwner224• 6 years ago

If they're collecting this data, I strongly suspect they feel obligated to, maybe even compelled too. Possibly for purposes like app security, user security, OS security, user experience, etc.

This doesn't really make sense; none of those are compelling use cases for such invasive data collection. And this additional new tracking does not seem very useful for security, and even then there's no reason for all of the data to leave the device if it's for security.

lern_too_spel• 6 years ago

Apple and Microsoft collect the same data (with the same ability to opt out of app usage reporting). Apple is the worst of the three because there is no supported way to install an app on iOS without telling Apple.

lightgreen5• 6 years ago

collects sensitive Android user data

Looks like it’s basic metrics like how often the app is launched. It is not sensitive (user content of the apps would be sensitive).

It is an antitrust issue but barely a security/privacy issue.

jstanley• 6 years ago

Call me old-fashioned, but if anybody knows when or how often I'm executing a particular program on my own hardware, that is a privacy issue.

lightgreen5• 6 years ago

It is 1/1000 of the issue of looking into other app messages and 1/1000000 of the issue of looking into other app messages by humans and selling it to unknown parties.

If we call every issue equally important privacy violation, one day we will overlook the one really important issue, which this issue isn’t.

tdeck2• 6 years ago

I'm not familiar with the details, but it's very likely these data are k-anonymized and sampled to make it impossible to identify a particular person.

jevgeni4• 6 years ago

Didn’t HN collectively loose their s..t when Microsoft did something similar with Win 10 telemetry?

fxtentacle3• 6 years ago

The difference appears to be that by now, everyone is kind of used to this behavior from Google.

fierarul2• 6 years ago

Microsoft did and continues doing that, correct? I don't remember any article on them stopping that or even explain what telemetry contains.

smolder• 6 years ago

Google and MS are now both actively working on making Orwell's 1984 closer to reality, along with several other tech companies. I think people were disappointed when MS made a big leap in that direction with win 10 but it doesn't mean Google and Android aren't shit for their big part.

frf37• 6 years ago

You are assuming that all apps are generic. Some apps actually are specific to a medical condition you can have or certain aspect of your life that are not known by the general public. It is of the same nature as your browsing history in some ways. So yes apps usage patterns are actually potential privacy issues. Admittedly since most apps are downloaded from the app stores Google would already know part of the story but still your usage pattern may reveal even more especially when correlated to other data.

xondono2• 6 years ago

To me the most worrying is that while I intellectually know this is bad, emotionally it gets a solid “meh” from me.

Google is desensitizing us to this kind of bad behavior, to the point that this sounds like it’s only half the story, or not such a bug deal.

jarfil• 6 years ago

All I care about is whether this is opt-in and whether I can decide to not give then that data.

Other than that, Google being able to process more data about their own platform than others, is something to be expected.

xondono2• 6 years ago

Agreed, but there’s a lot to say about what’s the default and how you are supposed to opt-out.

If Google is artificially inflating opt-out costs for the user, then that’s something to watch for.

mrweasel2• 6 years ago

"meh" sound about right, I didn't know that Google where doing things like this, but my response was pretty much; "meh, I doubt that anyone is really surprised".

thatha7777• 6 years ago

Unsurprising. Another decade-old example: in the pre-iPhone/pre-Android era, when Google Maps was available on BlackBerry, Google created a vast database that associated cellphone tower locations to addresses, on the (smart) assumption that the “from” location is usually where you are.

They used this as a negotiating tactic for acquisitions they made in the space...

kevmo314• 6 years ago

Heh, it's like first generation machine learning.

sukilot2• 6 years ago

How does knowing where you are affect acquisitions? And why wouldn't they know just from talking to the target?

nitrogen3• 6 years ago

I'm not sure, but I think the OP meant that Google pointed out "we already have this DB, so you're really not worth that much to us" in negotiations with location data vendors.

izacus5• 6 years ago

Yes, those databases are sadly very common and are fundamental to how location services work on the phone. In most cases there's no good GPS signal in urban areas, so cell tower and wifi locations are the most reliable way of determining the location. These databases are of course very valuable and require constant updates.

Pretty much every manufacturer has them - Apple was collecting/uploads this data (cell towers, wifis and your location) in iOS 4 as well: https://www.computerworld.com/article/2507791/iphone-secretl...

aasasd3• 6 years ago

Android 10 (on googlephones) has a feature called ‘digital wellbeing’ that can measure how much I gawk at the screen, and show that to me. Interesting, I think, let's see if that data stays locally. The only piece of info on data usage that I've found is a link to Google's overarching privacy policy. Oy vey. Some data-processing features in the settings are marked with ‘data stays on the phone’—but this one isn't. So I have to assume that ‘wellbeing’ snitches to Google, and can't use it.

“Collection of data is disclosed to and controllable by users”? Well, if the users presume that collection is going on unless said otherwise, then maybe.

Annoying thing is, I'd quite want to use the voice assistant. Do I like to fiddle with integrations and workflows? Oh boy. Damn well I do. Do I know that my voiceprint won't turn up on Google's servers the minute I use the assistant? Nope.

(Btw, another baffling trait of the Android ecosystem is how many well-known and widely-used hackish tools are closed-source: those from XDA and such. “Flash this binary to root your phone”, “install this blob for low-level customizations”. Eeeeh? I think I'll just disable all Google's misfeatures instead, for now.)

ignoramous• 6 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oy_vey

propogandist5• 6 years ago

The digital wellbeing app is pretty much spyware. If you disable Google Play Service, the Wellbeing app (which cannot be disabled) will constantly complain that it won't work properly... The app has, among other permissions, the requirement to have full network access.

Similarly, if you use the default Gboard (keyboard) on Android, it's constantly trying to call home to Google servers, as with most other stock apps.

Android is just increasingly becoming spyware and best route is installing AOSP without GApps. Unfortunately, Google seems to be keen on limiting this behavior and increasing their lock-in with recent changes to Android, making it harder for the open source community to have control over the OS.

mav3rick4• 6 years ago

Google Play Services are the crux of the implementation of core services. If you're not okay with that don't buy the phone or install something else on it.

euix2• 6 years ago

That's funny, maybe Huawei phones are going to have a market niche in the west!

cptskippy• 6 years ago

Their apps require weird/unnecessary permissions. Google Maps now requires access to monitor Physical Activity if you use Location Sharing.

extropy• 6 years ago

That seems a reasonable thing to ask for location sharing. Probably really used for the timeline though.

https://developer.android.com/about/versions/10/privacy/chan...

catalogia• 6 years ago

(Btw, another baffling trait of the Android ecosystem is how many well-known and widely-used hackish tools are closed-source: those from XDA and such. “Flash this binary to root your phone”, “install this blob for low-level customizations”. Eeeeh? I think I'll just disable all Google's misfeatures instead, for now.)

It really seems like most of the android developer culture came from the oldschool windows freeware scene, which also has a baffling aversion to publishing source code.

commoner2• 6 years ago

That is true, but there has been some progress on the adoption of the FOSS model in the Android developer community. The most commonly used Android recovery software, TWRP, is open source.

https://github.com/TeamWin/Team-Win-Recovery-Project

The most popular Android rooting solution, Magisk, is also open source. All Magisk modules (plugins developed by the community) in the official repository are required to be open source.

https://github.com/topjohnwu/Magisk

https://github.com/Magisk-Modules-Repo/submission

izacus5• 6 years ago

Annoying thing is, I'd quite want to use the voice assistant. Do I like to fiddle with integrations and workflows? Oh boy. Damn well I do. Do I know that my voiceprint won't turn up on Google's servers the minute I use the assistant? Nope.

Google Assistant uses servers to run voice recognition so it's certain that your voice print will end up on their servers. Same for Apple Siri and pretty much any of them. As far as I'm aware, only the Pixel 4's improved Assistant is capable of partial offline execution and even that ends up on Google's servers.

Also additional question for HNers: Do you consider Apple's "Digital wellbeing" feature on iOS spyware as well? Is there a difference?

aasasd3• 6 years ago

I think explanations on the phone or in the online help say somewhere that the assistant sort of can recognize commands offline, even before Pixel 4. But I may be mistaken—can't find that now.

nojito• 6 years ago

Siri requests aren't tied to unique persons.

mgraczyk• 6 years ago

You can disable app-usage access for the digital wellbeing app in the system settings. Just search for "wellbeing", click into it, click the menu, then "turn off usage access".

Google doesn't need this tool to track usage statistics for ads. The ads SDK used by app developers is orders of magnitude more useful as a data source.

jariel• 6 years ago

‘digital wellbeing’

This has such an Orwellian tinge to it.

This is the Western version of CCP controls, the means just take another form. I don't imply the two are in the same category and therefore it's not equivalent, but within the constraints Google has ... this is what it looks like.

userbinator2• 6 years ago

Btw, another baffling trait of the Android ecosystem is how many well-known and widely-used hackish tools are closed-source: those from XDA and such.

It's closer to the Windows cracking scene and such, where the expectation is that if you don't trust something, you either don't use it or disassemble and analyse it yourself. After all, a lot of app modding is done using decompilers.

lowdose• 6 years ago

I recommend buying a Google Hub with a screen for Google Assistant. It's pretty awesome to just ask Google to play Spotify on my Sonos without having to touch anything.

On the screen I can see all my interaction history with the assistant with 2 taps.

zodiakzz• 6 years ago

The data was used earlier this month in India, where Google planned to roll out a competitor app to TikTok.

Ah! I was hoping the Google Cemetery meme would die out soon. Not so fast I guess.

aasasd3• 6 years ago

And here I thought that ‘stories’ on Youtube is a competitor to Tiktok.

Apparently in this day only carpet-bombing with services bears fruit.

dannyr• 6 years ago

If Google is really doing this, you'd think they could make messaging and social media apps that are actually competitive.

nicoburns• 6 years ago

Data won't get you very far here. You actually need good product/UX design.

mrweasel2• 6 years ago

Based on their current product line up I doubt that Google has a single UX designer employed.

throwaway1892622• 6 years ago

I think they decided it was unnecessary.

They slurp up contacts, emails, location data, search, pictures. Everything you would get from a social network they already have, just from disparate sources.

IgorPartola2• 6 years ago

This is the kind of crap that convinced me to switch to Apple handsets back in the day when they were still a pain to use for various reasons (remember upgrading by connecting to iTunes with a cable?). Apple does some shady shady things but not with my privacy.

Incidentally though they do have some settings you might want to check out though. One in particular let Facebook spy on your other apps so fine tune their ads.

brnt• 6 years ago

A solution that doesn't merely change masters but gets rid of them entirely would be to get a phone with LineageOS. When I need a new one, the Lineage supported devices list is the only list I care about.

izacus5• 6 years ago

This is a bizarre post considering that Apple collects very similar data via their analytics (there's an opt-out you need to select on your iOS device to opt out) and Apple Store itself (which counts downloads and knows about every update, install and uninstall of an app on your iOS device with no alternative option for you as a user).

If you really care about your privacy in this case, Apple devices won't save you either. The difference is just in the fact that ArsTechnica decided not to write an article about it, but your data is being uploaded all the same :/

coldcode• 6 years ago

No the difference with Apple is they don't make money off of your data, they make money selling you devices. Google needs to know about your data in order to sell it or ads or whatever to third parties.

ocdtrekkie• 6 years ago

What truly flabbergasts me is that businesses today still feel that Google's platforms and services can help their business.

The reality is, if you are a business, Google is your competitor. Which means Google getting a hold of any information about your business should be part of your threat model.

You may not be in Google's sights today, but you very well could be tomorrow. And they will use your usage of their platforms to screw you.

jadbox• 6 years ago

In my direct experience being in SV startups for over 10yrs, this is also true for all major tech companies. They all abuse their platform power to enter into a new market segment. Just a few days ago this journal was published: https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-tech-startup-echo-bezos-...

sukilot2• 6 years ago

It's fundamental to the platform business. The Internet just happens to be the biggest place to build platforms. But it's the same as how grocery stores or any intermediary works.

tmpz22• 6 years ago

What's funny to me is despite wielding all this power and network effects - when tech giants try to enter new markets they fail at a seemingly higher rate then start-ups and other businesses. They have a ten mile head start and are still losing the race consistently. Which is probably good for most consumers.

swiley2• 6 years ago

There is not a single good “mobile os.”

Trash all of them and just put GNU/Linux on your devices if you really have to have a smart phone.

vdfs• 6 years ago

Android run on GNU/Linux, problem is not in the kernel but user land apps will track you

nitrogen3• 6 years ago

It doesn't run GNU, or at least not much of it.

markosaric• 6 years ago

Google loves to devour all the data it can so best to keep them as far away as possible from the devices and properties that you own and control.

mcintyre1994• 6 years ago

I always assumed they’d be doing this. Given that Facebook went as far as buying a VPN company and then turning it into spyware to get a fraction of that data, it’d be surprising to me for Google not to be using what they have.

jacquesm• 6 years ago

Not three days ago there was this article about another company where people were immediately saying with great authority that Google would never do this.

throwaway1892622• 6 years ago

We desperately need a standardized open source phone. The raspberry pi of phones. Linux may be a better platform than AOSP. Android and iOS were designed for control first.

Control over apps, control over the store, over what users are allowed to do. If you don't need any of that to make money why not run a regular Linux distro.

Opens source phones will never be mainstream. Same as desktop Linux. But it would be nice to have a widely supported option for those of us that care

guerrilla• 6 years ago

It seems like we're getting there with Prism [1] and Pine [2]. Seems to be a couple more I've never heard of [3].

[1]. https://puri.sm/products/

[2]. https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/

[3]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_mobile_pho...

cesarb• 6 years ago

> We desperately need a standardized open source phone. The raspberry pi of phones.
It seems like we're getting there with Prism [1] and Pine [2]. Seems to be a couple more I've never heard of [3].

But are they standardized? That is, can I have a single "phone OS" distribution which can be installed unmodified in all of them? We're already there with the Raspberry Pi: the 64-bit Fedora I installed on mine boots through UEFI, and the same Fedora install should boot on any other UEFI-using 64-bit ARM board. That's the only way to get the necessary scale; otherwise, the community will stay split in separate silos (a purism silo, a pine64 silo, etc).

pjmlp• 6 years ago

Those are just the next ones on a long list started with Openmoko.

burtonator• 6 years ago

HN loves to talk about how Open Source and distributed system are going to change the world.

Apache and Linux were open source. The Internet was designed to be distributed. We failed.

We still had centralization. We still have SPoF...

The issue is economic, not technical.

When corporations like Amazon and Google have severely unfair competitive advantages we're going up in this situation again and again and again.

The only way to change this is to reform tax law.

kazagistar• 6 years ago

And the only way to reform tax law is to reform speech law to prevent blatant corruption.

Ericson23142• 6 years ago

Yes, I agree. But it's far easier to push technology----where incremental progress like Pine64-ing everything you own is possible----than push for political stuff when e.g. FTFP means you'd have to move first.

I, for one, see technological replicating the stagnation and over-complexity of human systems (say US was kinda alright in 1790, Unix in 1970). I Hope that if the technological and organizational problems of free software/hardware can be solved, we can use that experience to tackle the real-life problems.

jameslk• 6 years ago

The only way to change this is to reform tax law.

I'm curious what kind of tax reform you have in mind?

userbinator2• 6 years ago

open source phone. The raspberry pi of phones

I don't think an ecosystem based around SoCs from a notoriously proprietary and open-source-unfriendly company is at all a good model of an "open source phone".

gigatexal• 6 years ago

The temptation to exploit data you collect is too high. Best not to collect this data in the first place.

gerash• 6 years ago

This is an unfair advantage but I don't think is specific to Google. I don't know whether Apple collects such consumer usage metrics or not but Amazon, Walmart, Costco, etc. they all monitor consumer metrics and might end up building a competing product/service based on those metrics.

izacus5• 6 years ago

Apple certanly collects metrics about AppStore downloads (they're after all available to developers with https://developer.apple.com/app-store-connect/analytics/ ). There's also a decent chunk of analytics going from iOS (probably order of magnitde less than Android though) you need to opt out of.

Uptrenda• 6 years ago

Copying boring social apps seems like such a waste of the talent and creativity at Google. They should focus more on innovation instead of this kind of cut-throat bs.

philipov• 6 years ago

With a hundred billion dollars, they can do both.

xenospn• 6 years ago

Google doesn’t innovate anymore. They acquire and throw most of their acquisitions in the trash.

flutterdude420• 6 years ago

Alpha Zero and Quantum supremacy don't count as innovation?

arkanciscan• 6 years ago

It's too bad there's not an open platform where apps can be deployed without a centralized proprietary app store...

thoraway1010• 6 years ago

For everyone one of the apple / google huge privacy breach headlines / comments some quick thoughts.

Google and Apple can at least plausibly infrastructure an anonymized data collection service and control access to it reasonably.

- You probably should worry more about the per user per connection logs your "loggless" VPN provider keeps in crappy open to the world datastores.

- The data sniffing and tracking your own ISP is doing.

- The uninstallable malware / bloatware etc that comes on huge number of phones built by third parties (ie, not google or apple).

Whenever I sign up for a "free" service (like google analytics or its equivalent for android) I am under almost no illusion that google isn't also using that data to help track users access the web target them, figure out what ads to show on my site (if I let them) etc etc.

And yes, we will find out that facebook tracks the URLs of sites people share on their platform and "snoopes" on that to figure out popularity trends. And twitter will watch tweet metrics related to their competitors. I wonder if we will get some headlines over those issues.

Finally, some folks come up with weird threat models - google is out to get me and now they can. Heads up, google could get you before this as well if they cared to. Can you imagine a govt having google's power. That would be a near dictatorship!

Google reportedly peeks into Android data to gain edge over third-party apps

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