Rust/WinRT Brings Microsoft Closer to Adopting Rust Internally

https://www.infoq.com/news/2020/05/rust-winrt-microsoft/

by yannikyeo • 6 years ago

106 46 6 years ago

m0zg2• 6 years ago

Does Microsoft even use WinRT "internally"? Back in the day, e.g. Office would simply ignore all DevDiv and WinDiv bullshit and roll its own frameworks and even _custom controls_ libraries.

vbezhenar• 6 years ago

https://github.com/microsoft/calculator :) Not sure if that's RT though. There are so many Windows frameworks.

duaoebg• 6 years ago

Checking out the bugs, it’s hilarious. You’d think it’s simple enough to get right. Crash on copying value, a bug waiting on triage for three months. Not exactly an endorsement

contextfree2• 6 years ago

WinRT isn't really a framework, but more like a "shape" of API/ABI, like C calling conventions or COM. Most Windows APIs added in the last ten years or so have been WinRT based.

contextfree2• 6 years ago

Office absolutely makes use of all sorts of Windows APIs including flat C APIs, COM APIs and WinRT APIs. The Office Win32 apps recently moved over to using the WinRT Windows.UI.Composition APIs for their composition layer, for example.

barrkel• 6 years ago

If you're racing to hit a deadline, you don't want dependencies on other teams.

So if the designers have drawn up the UI for the next major refresh, Office doesn't need to wait for the shell team to have implemented the controls, or for development to have them wrapped up in MFC.

If the dependencies already exist, you're on safer ground. Though team culture may choose otherwise; I understood Excel didn't like having any external dependencies.

chipperyman5732• 6 years ago

Did excel not even use any math libraries? Seems kind of silly to re-create that wheel, espically when we've proven that many of our algorithms are mathematically impossible to improve, and excel is so heavily focused on math work.

m0zg2• 6 years ago

Better roll their own OS then. And then their own hardware and semiconductors as well.

pjmlp8• 6 years ago

Yes, React Native for Windows uses WinUI, and Office is their biggest customer.

Also many WinUI components have come from Office's experience adopting UWP APIs.

FpUser8• 6 years ago

So they're giving another candy, this time to developers who like/want to use Rust. Not bad for them.

My personal view/situation is a bit different. I think this is nothing more but yet another attempt by Microsoft to woo customers into a set of technologies/runtimes/APIs that are way more constrained that good ole Win32. On windows desktop GUI front I was using Delphi since 90s and barring few easily fixable hick ups what did work then works as a charm even now. So instead of wasting my time on their infinite ever changing set of front end tech I stayed on a proven path and that saved me a ton of money. And my desktop development is still the same with extra niceties as added multi platform ability and free and open source Delphi's alternative Lazarus/FreePascal combo.

alkonaut2• 6 years ago

Rust with win32 has worked for years.

FpUser8• 6 years ago

Did I say it does not? I think you've completely missed my point. By the number of downvotes it seems you are not alone. So maybe I was not clear enough.

rvz• 6 years ago

Well Microsoft has learned their lesson this time when they missed out on the smartphone industry and they are coming after winning back developers; and it seems to be working, especially when you give them "free stuff".

Now that they have Github, NPM, Azure, WSL2 and WinUI its no surprise why they would want to allow other languages such as Rust to be easily used on Windows. Better support for Rust means more developers will hop on supporting Windows.

smt88• 6 years ago

Just to be clear, you think that adding support for another language is Microsoft's attempt to constrain Win32 developers?

FpUser8• 6 years ago

I am asking you not to distort a context. That is not what I said. But just in case let me repeat it: Microsoft was for years and still is trying to move people from Win32 to a more constrained platform by using various means.

pjmlp8• 6 years ago

Well, you are free to switch to ReactOS in that case.

I rather have the warm feeling that random app X won't snoop my user data files.

FpUser8• 6 years ago

I can donate abacus to you. Just let me know where to mail it.

More seriously. Windows does not prevent me from using Win32 so no need to use ReactOS and I did not ever have a single customer complaint about not using UWP/.NET/WinRT/Whatever tech. So in my areas of business where it concerns desktop apps that "warm feeling" means zilch fro a practical standpoint.

0x0• 6 years ago

Imagine a world wide web where Microsoft buys Mozilla because of a programming language they happened to develop.

ChrisSD• 6 years ago

Mozilla doesn't develop Rust. Mozilla developers are involved in Rust's development but that's not quite the same thing.

Microsoft buying Mozilla would only buy developer time, not Rust itself (and then only if the developers don't jump ship).

VWWHFSfQ• 6 years ago

I think Canonical will be the next major "earth-shattering" acquisition that Microsoft makes. Ubuntu is so widely deployed as the defacto Linux OS everywhere from Linux CI images, AWS instances. Azure. After IBM bought Red Hat it seems like there's a run on owning the Linux "ecosystem", even if you can't own the code. Microsoft is demonstrating that they want to own the new world of development/deployment ecosystem end-to-end. Github, VS Code, NPM.

Next will be the operating system that everyone runs their stuff on. Doesn't WSL already default to Ubuntu anyway?

Edit: also isn't Shutteworth still funding Canonical out of his pocket? The last I checked it wasn't nearly profitable.

bhouston• 6 years ago

What a brilliant move for Ms to acquire canonical and then fund the crap out of it

empath75• 6 years ago

I think that would get a pretty close look from the justice department.

sansnomme• 6 years ago

Be careful, a lot of people do not like that idea. The last time I mentioned it I was downvoted deep into the negatives.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23205763

letitbeirie• 6 years ago

If Ballmer were still in charge they would have just outbid IBM for Redhat.

dang• 6 years ago

See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23033451 from a couple weeks ago.

StillBored• 6 years ago

I might have to see if the winrt bindings are better than the generic rust ecosystem. I think the idea of rust is a good one, but the language isn't really something I would ever recommend for a professional project at this point.

I can get around the fact that using rust sometimes feels like programming with one arm tied behind my back. The real problem is the ecosystem. I've hardly used rust enough to feel like I've got a really broad feel for the ecosystem, but the feeling I have at the moment is that its quite possible to hit deal breaker levels of problems when attempting to combine differing libraries into the same application. Particularity when one is using threads in an application. I needed to pass one libraries reference into a thread, where another library needed to have the instance used in a closure. It turned out to be impossible without either using unsafe code or adding additional traits to both libraries. A trick made much harder because I then had to wrangle cargo to pick up internally maintained versions of libraries instead of the main cargo repos.

So, I get the distinct feeling that rust is great if you can stick to a single threaded programs, or you don't rely on 3rd party libraries. Mix the two, and your in deep trouble.

pjmlp8• 6 years ago

BUILD 2020 is taking place this week, there are a 4 Rust related talks:

- Expert Q&A: C#/C++/Rust WinRT Team

- The 30 Min Beginner Rust Coding Challenge

- Intro to Rust

- Microsoft's Safe Systems Programming Languages Effort

More info at:

https://mybuild.microsoft.com/sessions?t=%257B%2522from%2522...

Rust/WinRT Brings Microsoft Closer to Adopting Rust Internally

Related Stories