Mubarak to step down tonight

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/02/egypts-supreme-council-of-armed-forces-meeting-on-crisis/1

by shortlived • 15 years ago

249 98 15 years ago

content.usatoday.com

JoeAltmaier• 15 years ago

"Demands will be met", "Mubarak will meet with the people". Hopeful! But the headline should be "Mubarak may step down tonight"

tobych• 15 years ago

Or as the BBC news website currently has it:

Egypt's Mubarak 'may stand down'

eru6• 15 years ago

Al-Jazeera has "Hosni Mubarak 'may step down'" (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/2011210...).

cma3• 15 years ago

The vice president that will take over was trained in Fort Bragg, NC. He has been the head of the Egyptian side of the "extraordinary rendition" joint-US torture program.

If you want some scale for the corruption going on in Egypt, look into why Mubarak is wealthier than Bill Gates.

iuygtfrikuj2• 15 years ago

From consultancy payments from US defense suppliers?

DanI-S2• 15 years ago

We shouldn't draw some arbitrary border around Egypt's corruption. Our governments directly benefited from it; we're all implicit in it. Western support of regimes like this /has/ to end.

cma3• 15 years ago

I am aware and I agree; I wasn't drawing a border.

erikpukinskis• 15 years ago

complicit

jsm386• 15 years ago

The 70 billion dollar figure was based on pure speculation.

FWIW, US gov is estimating closer to 2 billion http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/10/6024993-muba...

mkr-hn• 15 years ago

The number isn't too important past a certain point. He's going to live a comfortable life wherever he goes.

DevX101• 15 years ago

For the curious, it's been estimated that Mubarak's wealth stands between 40 - 70 billion dollars. This number seems shaky to me, but according to US officials he's worth at least 2 billion. No one knows for sure, and he has distributed it amongst his family, but it is all but certain he's keeping that money.

How did he get so rich? Well if you have a major business and you would like to expand into Egypt, the law requires 51% Egyptian ownership. I'm not privy to the investment ownership of companies based in Egypt, but its a pretty good bet that Mubarak enforced a pay to play scheme to major and minor corporations.

fdsafsdf• 15 years ago

Egypt is a military ally of the US and it sends its generals for training there. Other allies of the US do so as well (for example: Israel's prime minister and minister of defence have also studied in America). Suleiman was the head of intelligence, and thus responsible for all intelligence programs that Egypt had with America. Why would you single out the rendition program?

For some reason, you're pulling two questionably relevant facts from his biography and present them with a conspiratorial tone.

cma3• 15 years ago

>his biography

I was talking about two different people in my comment.

MichaelSalib• 15 years ago

Managing intelligence programs isn't necessarily a problem. The real issue is that Sulemain was actively involved in torturing people for the US government. This isn't some nutty conspiracy: it has been reported extensively. For example, see Jane Mayer's book The Dark Side (Mayer is a journalist at the New Yorker and before that the Wall Street Journal). The fact that Sulemain has been so deeply complicit in torture for the US government suggests that he's likely to keep power and US backing.

The fact that Mubarak's hand picked replacement is directly responsible for torturing many people on behalf of the US government seems pretty damn relevant to just about everything.

_delirium• 15 years ago

This is interesting if true, from the BBC liveblog:

Sources close to the army tell the BBC’s Christian Fraser in Cairo that the military stepped in to stop the president handing power to his second in command Omar Suleiman.

warfangle• 15 years ago

There's more detail over on Al Jazeera English: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/10/live-blog-...

losvedir• 15 years ago

The live blog is excellent for getting a sense of what's been happening, seeing the story unfold.

Youtube is broadcasting Aljazeera English live here: http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish?feature=ticker . Mubarak was supposed to speak at 10pm Egypt time (40 mins ago), but hasn't yet. I wonder when he will and what he'll say. I encourage everyone to find a live feed of what's going on over there (e.g. the youtube link above) and follow along. History in the making, perhaps?

torme• 15 years ago

Is this really any different? They're just instating the VP instead, who I imagine is probably not much better.

This might make sense if they're planning to hold another election shortly thereafter. That way, at least the figurehead is out of office, and there's the potential for a peaceful transition for a replacement. Given the level of corruption though, is that even a possibility?

iuygtfrikuj2• 15 years ago

The VP is much better, he is a far more strenuous supporter of US interests in the war on terrorism and for stability in the middle east.

(ie. still hungry for more consultancy payments)

roc2• 15 years ago

The Egyptian people already rejected the transparent figure-head proposal (the "I won't run for re-election" promise). I don't think anyone expects them to accept anything that doesn't carry the promise of a free and fair election.

That said, the Vice President came up through the military which, as we've been told, is very well-respected. I don't see any reason why the people would distrust what would essentially be an Egyptian Military stewardship.

Perhaps they should be wary of that. And perhaps they will be. But it seems reasonable to expect they'd be willing to give it a shot. The military has done right by them thus far.

wolfrom• 15 years ago

Don't forget that Mubarak was just an air force officer who was Sadat's vice president. It's hard not to think of this as a repeat of past successions. I haven't read whether Suleiman would stand for re-election in Sept.

jcsalterego3• 15 years ago

I'm seeing this everywhere else on my internets, but I will have to play the "OT for HN" card.

JonnieCache3• 15 years ago

Civil rights issues are hacker issues. Even if they're not in your country.

jcsalterego3• 15 years ago

I concede to your first point. Not sure where the second part is coming from.

knowledgesale• 15 years ago

These are not news on civil rights. One politician stepped down and made his vice an incumbent. No evidence of change in the system at the moment.

There is a long way from stepping down of one person who is a symbol of corruption to a democratic or just more liberal society (e.g. look at the ex-USSR countries).

mkramlich• 15 years ago

I don't go to CNN/NYT/BBC for hacker news. I don't go to Hacker News for world/political news. I don't go to McDonald's for steak and I don't go to Disneyland to check out a library book. All other websites and media channels are just a click away so put me down on the side of thinking a front page link about the Egypt situation is OT and inefficient for HN. If not, let's take it to the logical extreme and start submitting pictures of pretty ponies. Hackers can find pretty ponies interesting.

michaelty• 15 years ago

The effect of sites like Twitter and Facebook in organizing opposition to repressive governments across the world is very relevant to hackers and startups.

A startup may also have to consider how to react when a foreign government starts demanding restrictions on the startup's services within a particular country, if the users are destabilizing that foreign government's position.

jarek• 15 years ago

Any government, including their own, for that matter.

sanj• 15 years ago

I believe twitter and Facebook's influence is painfully overstated.

benwerd• 15 years ago

Hooray! Mubarak to concede power to his vice president, who has said that Egypt isn't ready for democracy, effectively deflating the protesters' demands while changing pretty much nothing, and leaving the door open to come down harshly on dissenters once the eyes of the world have moved elsewhere. That's great!

Seriously, this strikes me as propaganda of the worst kind. All of us here are in the business of making things better - the promise of the web is all about democratization and equalizing hierarchies. What can we do to help, both here and elsewhere?

barrkel• 15 years ago

Odd feature of Egypt constitution, as far as I'm aware: if the president resigns, power falls to the speaker of the parliament, not the vice president.

E.g.: http://www.eipr.org/en/pressrelease/2011/02/05/1091

learner4life• 15 years ago

Remember though, the country is in a state of emergency (As it has been for the last 30 years). I am not sure those rules apply in a state of emergency.

afterburner2• 15 years ago

I think in Egypt what happens is largely a matter of what the army lets happen.

Unseelie• 15 years ago

To help: Education. We're sitting on the best tool for disseminating information ever created, and things get better when people are educated. If they can do math, they can better run businesses. If they know history, they know politics. If they are taught marketing, they understand propaganda. The best way anyone in the world can help make the world a better place is by providing education to as many people as possible.

ugh• 15 years ago

You are assuming that the current Egyptian leadership is a single actor, executing a single plan. You are assuming that all the interests are aligned, even after all the pressure, the cracks, the jumbling. Considering the situation in Egypt, that doesn’t seem to be the case.

This is far from over.

lionhearted4• 15 years ago

True story, three nights ago at a bar in Saigon:

Friend of mine: Mubarak is sharp. That motherfucker has been hated for a long time, but is still in power... he'll weather this, he'll still be running the country next year.

Me: I don't know dude, the city is literally on fire. Has any revolution ever hit this point and had the leader keep control?

Him: They're rioting. It'll get settled out. Besides, Mubarak's got the military.

Me: Does he? Really?

Him: Well, if you think he'll be out of power, put your money where your mouth is. 100 bucks says, Mubarak is still in power at the end of this year.

Me: I don't know dude, I guess I don't know as much about this as you do...

Him: I don't know much. But I think he's got it. What do you say, 100 bucks?

Me: Well, what's "in power"?

Him: He's still got the title President on December 31st.

Me: In Egypt, not in exile?

Him: In Egypt. He's still president, and in Egypt.

Me: And no foreign occupying army stabilizing - no U.N. peacekeepers or transition force.

Him: That wouldn't happen, America has the securi -- okay, fine, yes, no foreign forces. So the wager is - Mubarak has the title of President on December 31st, is in Egypt, and there's no foreign troops occupying.

Me: Okay, I'm going to go with history here. You can break riots earlier, but once they hit this point it's over...

Him: We'll see. I want that hundred bucks in December.

Me: I'm good for it. You're on.

We shook on it. I'll take him out to a nice dinner with some of the money.

oconnor0• 15 years ago

If Mubarak returns to power before the end of the year does your friend win?

lionhearted4• 15 years ago

> If Mubarak returns to power before the end of the year does your friend win?

If he's got the title of President, there's no foreign troops stabilizing (that's the only way I could see Mubarak keeping power - if the U.N. sent peacekeepers or something), and he's in Egypt, then I suppose so yes.

mahmud2• 15 years ago

Gaaah, Seb!

The whole dialogue can be summarized as "someone bet me he will still be in power a year from now".

lionhearted4• 15 years ago

> The whole dialogue can be summarized as "someone bet me he will still be in power a year from now".

The differing analysis was actually more interesting to me than the wager - his was that Mubarak is resilient, ruthless, has weathered things in the past, and has the military.

My thinking was that things had already progressed beyond the point where he could possibly stay in power... and the military is not so clearly on his side against the people, especially considering he likely won't live much longer.

I thought comparing the two points of view was more interesting than the bet itself.

afterburner2• 15 years ago

I thought the conditions were interesting, and they sparked thought. Such as to what extent foreign support is considered "cheating" in this sense; apparently troops is too obvious, funding is OK. ;)

sammcd• 15 years ago

I enjoyed it in its current form.

sgk284• 15 years ago

The journey was more interesting than the destination.

Damn programmers always trying to optimize away the interesting bits ;)

btilly2• 15 years ago

Point for your friend.

Long before this happened a US government cable analyzed Egypt and said that the military would do little to protect Mubarak as long as their economic interests were not threatened. Right now the military is facing major disruption to its economic interests as long as the protests continue. But if they transition to a new government, they can reduce the disruption.

Now I can just see you saying, Economic interests? What economic interests. They are a military! Which is entirely reasonable, but wrong. The Egyptian military is somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of Egypt's economy.

Why? Well when the Camp David accords brought about peace, Egypt no longer needed such a big military. But they didn't want to make all of those men go into the private sector at once, that could destabilize the country. So they found jobs for them. For example lots of wonderful beaches no longer needed to be filled with military bases to repel a possible Israeli attack, so the military removed the bases, and built tourist resorts instead. Which they ran.

So Mubarak is out. He can't protect the military's commercial interests. Whoever and whatever replaces him is fine as long as the military interests are maintained. The changes can be extensive, so long as the country goes back to work and the military is free to return to making money.

eru6• 15 years ago

> Now I can just see you saying, Economic interests? What economic interests. They are a military! Which is entirely reasonable, but wrong. The Egyptian military is somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of Egypt's economy.

Reminds me of China.

nir2• 15 years ago

>so the military removed the bases, and built tourist resorts instead. Which they ran.

Any sources for this? The Sinai peninsula did not have many military bases (certainly not Egyptian ones) on the coastline. Are you referring to another area?

jrwoodruff• 15 years ago

So what happens if he keeps the title but relinquishes executive power, as the 2:05 post indicates? Tie?

gojomo• 15 years ago

The idea of 'Hosni Mubarak' might still be in power. It'll just be named 'Omar Suleiman'.

jganetsk• 15 years ago

Mubarak is not resigning. Looks like your friend is still in this game.

tlrobinson• 15 years ago

Looks like you might have spoken too soon: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2203697

goatforce52• 15 years ago

The AP is saying there might be a military coup in progress:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_EGYPT?SITE=AP&...

It seems as thought Mubarak is being pushed aside tonight (indeed, if I play connect the dots it looks like Mubarak is trying to flee and the army is trying to make sure he can't). Looks like there's more than one party who could take power over the next few hours. Whether they can hold on to that is another question entirely.

eibrahim2• 15 years ago

What a proud moment for Egypt and all Egyptians? I didn't think I will see a revolution in my lifetime but here we are watching one unfold in front of our own eyes.

This is what wikipedia says about the french revolutions - sounds very similar - doesn't it. Except egyptians did it in 2 weeks and not 3 years.

"The French Revolution was a period of radical social and political upheaval in French and European history. The absolute monarchy that had ruled France for centuries collapsed in three years. French society underwent an epic transformation as feudal, aristocratic and religious privileges evaporated under a sustained assault from liberal political groups and the masses on the streets. Old ideas about hierarchy and tradition succumbed to new Enlightenment principles of citizenship and inalienable rights."

philwelch• 15 years ago

You left out the part where Robespierre appointed himself executioner and had hundreds of people publicly beheaded for no good reason. Shortly afterwards, every institution in France, other than the military, collapsed and Napoleon invented the modern dictatorship and failed to conquer Europe.

I guess I'm saying, I hope the Egyptian revolution doesn't end up being as messy.

steve19• 15 years ago

Wikipedia lists over 40 revolutions in the 20th century[0] and 10 in the 21st[1]. This was not the first nor will be the last that happen in your lifetime.

I admire your optimism, but in my humble option unlike the French revolution, in which they eventually managed to rid themselves of dictators and obtain democracy, so far the Egyptians have only managed to throw out one dictator to be replaced by another (or maybe a military council).

I hope the Egyptians keep up the momentum and one day soon have free and fair elections. Until then I fear it will just be business as usual for the corrupt and powerful.

---

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:20th-century_revolutio...

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:21st-century_revolutio...

EDIT: Formatting.

eru6• 15 years ago

> I admire your optimism, but in my humble option unlike the French revolution, in which they eventually managed to rid themselves of dictators and obtain democracy,

How long is your `eventually'?

eibrahim2• 15 years ago

I am Egyptian American - both countries are extremely self-centered :)... That's probably why I never heard of the other revolutions in your links.

Regardless, this is something that is unprecedented in Egyptian history, which is 7000+ years long.

Honestly, I always thought the Egyptian revolution will be the poor rising up and slaughtering the rich. So, I am pretty impressed and proud at how peaceful this movement has been and is lead by educated and enlightened young people...

Isn't surprising that you don't hear the usual middle eastern chants "death to america/israel/obama/blah" or "jiha" or other sort of religious calls, etc... It has been all about democracy and human rights.

huherto• 15 years ago

It is a critical time, hopefully they can make a good transition. But things can get much worst if they people of Egypt don't have the maturity. Think, the Iranian revolution(of which I know little).

In the Mexican revolution they were able to overthrow the dictator in a few months. But, the new president was betrayed and that lead to a major bloody civil war that destroyed the country.

So, hopefully Egypto does it well but it is a risky time.

tantalor• 15 years ago

USA Today? Really? How about,

AP http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ipbX3bCpn8...

WP http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02...

WSJ http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110210-713568.html

NYT http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/world/middleeast/11egypt.h...

BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12421000

2mur• 15 years ago

But in his defense, as of 1224 EST the AP link reads:

  CIA Director Peon Panetta says U.S. intelligence indicates that Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is on his way out.

Which is amusing.

JonnieCache3• 15 years ago

Let's not forget TG: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/feb/10/egypt-middl...

They have very good liveblogs that collate a wide variety of sources.

shortlived• 15 years ago

Sorry, sorry. I wanted to be first with a story for once in my life. I agree there are much better sources, this is just the first one I read.

therealarmen• 15 years ago

you did it!

giberson2• 15 years ago

It occurs to me, that this information may be a coup. Imagine that Mubarak's original intention to address the protesters tonight was to propose some compromise other than his immediate stepping down. An opposing party could use the opportunity to force a step down. According to the USA today article, the military addressed the people "all of your demands will be met tonight". Was this really the instruction of Mubarak to the military? Or could it be the instruction coming from the opposition. By spreading a rumor that Mubarak will step down through official channels and generating real expectation for that to happen tonight a strategic coup could be set. Because tonight, if Mubarak doesn't step down, because of the expectation, it would stir the protester's riot past the boiling point. It would force the riots to the next stage of civil decent requiring military action against or for the people. At that point, absolutely the only way to appease the riots would be the forced removal of Mubarak.

It would be certainly interesting if that were really the case, and Mubarak now faced the realization that despite it not being originally his intent tonight--must step down from position.

eru6• 15 years ago

> By spreading a rumor that Mubarak will step down through official channels and generating real expectation for that to happen [...]

Confer the stepping down of the Germany Kaiser after WWI.

giberson2• 15 years ago

I'm having trouble sifting through the wiki info regarding the German revolution to find similarities I think you might be pointing out. Could you cliff note what your referring to?

callmevlad• 15 years ago

Based on the number of mentions of the "concerns of the Muslim Brotherhood", it seems likely that the Egyptian people are either in for a) military rule or b) a religious theocracy. I'm hoping for c) a true democracy, but the track record on that is pretty bad in the Middle East.

marze• 15 years ago

Are the Egyptian people really stupid enough to be happy the former head of the notorious secret police is taking over as president?

Unless I've really missed something, this makes little sense.

patr1ck• 15 years ago

YouTube / Al Jazeera has live video here: http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish

Pretty amazing stuff.

jim_h2• 15 years ago

Reuters just said that president is not stepping down. He is just transferring power.

Saw this on Al Jazeera, but no source/link yet.

jim_h2• 15 years ago

Watching the speech now. He's not stepping down. (Speech not done yet.)

kprobst• 15 years ago

He's speaking now on TV over there and the BBC says he'll stay in power until elections in September, which is basically the same thing the protesters were offered before.

d3fun• 15 years ago

as per the latest new he is not resigning http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/22309266;_ylt=AlFEJ8...

barredo2• 15 years ago

Well, he didn't

barredo2• 15 years ago

No he did!

axod• 15 years ago

There's no escape from politics. Even on HN.

zeteo• 15 years ago

Sensationalism and an unverified story, in the rush to grab attention at any cost. Kind of typical for today's mass media.

NY_USA_Hacker2• 15 years ago

Let's see, the headline is:

"Defiant Mubarak vows to stay in office until Sept. elections"

and the article has:

"Hundreds of thousands of protesters respond to Mubarak's speech with 'get out, get out!'"

So, Egypt is a country with some tens of millions of people, and some "hundreds of thousands" are unhappy. Also, Mubarak has been in office for a long time and, thus, passed whatever process Egypt has for picking a 'legitimate' government. And, the "protesters" apparently are claiming mostly just that they don't like what Mubarak has been doing and not that the government he heads is not legitimate.

So, in a country of some tens of millions of people, "hundreds of thousands" are trying to bring down a legitimate government and replace it with, what? Anything more legitimate or less? And of the "hundreds of thousands of protesters", their process of changing a government is some tiny fraction of the population "shouting" in a public square?

So, in the headline:

"Defiant Mubarak vows to stay in office until Sept. elections"

with "defiant" and "vows", the suggestion is that Mubarak is doing something wrong.

Then am I the only one here who concludes that the article is being irresponsible and trying to create violence, maybe Egypt with some tens of millions of people without a clearly legitimate government and, thus, a good chance of a long, bloody, civil war that also disrupts the world including the US economy?

It very much looks like

Douglas Stanglin, USA TODAY

wants a war, in particular a religious war, with Jihading Muslims, that might kill some millions of people in Egypt, might spread from Casablanca east to Afghanistan and on through South and South East Asia, might kill some tens of millions of people, might so seriously disrupt the world economy, say, about little things like oil, that we could have WWIII and kill nearly everyone?

So, my understanding is that Mubarak's term is up in September. Then to preserve their process of selecting a government, definitely Mubarak should stay in office and try to do what he was selected to do until September, and apparently that is what Mubarak just announced he will do. I'd say he did the 'statesman' like thing.

For

Douglas Stanglin, USA TODAY

apparently he's just a 'newsie' and a brain-dead, disconnected, clueless, irresponsible, blood thirsty one at that. Maybe he wants a "scoop"; someone please rush down to Petco and get the brain-dead newsie a "scoop", hopefully used.

colanderman• 15 years ago

At the risk of feeding a troll...

If 1% of the population ticked the "displeased with Mubarak" checkbox on a poll, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

But since 1% of the population is IN THE STREETS RIOTING, effectively setting aside their normal lives and risking even death, you can bet that a hell of a lot more are significantly displeased and are too scared/old/otherwise incapable of taking the risks there people are taking.

Furthermore you're being very disingenuous by quoting the population of Egypt as a whole, and comparing this to the numer of protesters in ONE CITY.

NY_USA_Hacker2• 15 years ago

I'm not "trolling" at all. Instead, this is serious stuff. To be self-interested about this, there is a risk of WWIII that would hurt me also.

This is about the importance of 'democracy', that is, settling political differences at the ballot box without blood instead of in the streets with blood.

And it's about a 'process' to change a government and give a 'legitimate' government that can have wide support of a 'social contract' that can avoid civil war and maintain peace.

And this is about international political arson.

The people of Egypt and the newsies should be careful about what they wish for because the might get it.

Your main point seems to be that by evidence direct, indirect, and 'generally accepted common knowledge' a 'lot' of people in Egypt very much don't like their government. So, the "hundreds of thousands" are, to be simple, 'very unhappy'. I can agree with that.

I will go further and agree that the Mubarak government hasn't done enough to help the people of Egypt and has been brutal with dissenters. And I will agree that Egypt should have a better government.

Still, we need to be a little careful here. I mention two reasons for being careful:

One reason is the newsie suggestion of the romantic 'narrative' of uncorrupted, sincere, dedicated, patriotic, native Egyptian youth spontaneously risking their lives in the streets against a decades old, corrupt, self-serving, self-perpetuating, ugly, brutal, violent, exploitative, evil dictatorship selfishly and 'defiantly vowing' to hang on to their unjust power and privilege and continue crushing to poverty, destitution, and often death the ordinary Egyptian people just to enrich a Mubarak led cabal of wealthy exploiters, all heavily driven by outside powers, hint, hint, the US, its need for oil through the Suez Canal and its desire to protect the 51st state, rich, brutal, inwardly directed Israel as it continues to scarf up the centuries old olive groves of the long suffering, native Palestinian people. Do I have the newsie's 'story' about right?

Yup, if a 'story' isn't good, then the newsies "will make it good" and thus grab readers by the heart, the gut, and below the belt, create 'compelling content' via vicarious, escapist, fantasy, emotional experience entertainment and, thus, grab eyeballs for the ad revenue and please the editors, publishers, and stockholders.

Second, we're playing with both the good of Egypt and WWIII here, so let's be a little careful.

To be a little careful, at

http://www.trueknowledge.com/q/population_of_egypt_2010

the 2010 population of Egypt is supposed to be 77,231,905.

Now the newsies say that "hundreds of thousands" have been in the streets or the square or wherever. So, not even the romantic newsies have said "millions". So, we're talking no more than one protester per 77 people or so.

That seems to be true but, as you point out, maybe not "the whole story". Okay: For each dedicated, sincere, life-risking protester, we should count more unhappy Egyptian people elsewhere in Cairo and the rest of Egypt. Okay, I'll go along with that.

So, as in the US where the citizens have the right "to petition the government for redress of grievances", the protesters should be able to gather, speak, shout, and scream in the streets, and the government should listen and, hopefully, act. Okay.

The Egyptian military could have flown over the streets with some helicopter gunships and then flown back to base with the streets quite silent but didn't do that. Uh, there are stories that for years the Egyptian military has gotten north of $1 billion a year from the US and that the top of the Egyptian military has been thoroughly educated in US military colleges. Hmm.

But, wait, there's more! There's the long, terrible 'transgression' of the evil Mubarak cabal. Now from 'the voice of the people' in the streets, there is 'retribution' for the evil cabal. If, as the newsies and apparently the White House want, the old Mubarak leaves office, then as he rides across the desert to retirement and into the sunset, he will get 'redemption'. So, borrowing from the 'Ring' of Wagner, the 'Ring' of Tolkien, the 'Star Wars' of Lucas, and the 'Jurassic Park' of Spielberg (and close to Goethe's 'Faust'), we have the classic trilogy of transgression, retribution, and redemption. So we have a second grade version of a 'morality play', popular all the way back to the beginnings of that foundation of the newsies, English literature. Still better would be a protest leader who ascends the barricades, gets the spontaneous acclimation of the hundreds of thousands, walks into the Presidential Palace, crisply saluted by smiling military guards, and gets the girl. Newsies just LOVE English literature! Democracy, reality, not so much.

Also, in the US are many guilt-ridden people who believe that the world would be one shining city on a hill just but for US evil foreign policy manipulation. So, whenever a 'friend' of the US falls, less guilt is felt.

Then there's the oil: The guilt-ridden are convinced that the US has been 'raping the natural world' to burn oil to support an 'unsustainable', dirty, filthy, unclean, wasteful, greedy, lazy, planet destroying lifestyle. So, if the oil were cut off, then less guilt would be felt.

Ah, two more morality plays for the newsies!

With these various morality plays of the newsies, does something bother you here?

Hint: Uh, just where is the 'democracy'? Or if that is asking too much, what about the 'process' of selecting a government?

For one step more, if some hundreds of thousands of people, maybe representing a few million people, in a country of 77 million people can bring down a government just by gathering in a square, then what is left of any reasonable government selection process?

Next, if Mubarak does what the people shouting in the streets want, then how to get a legitimate new government? That is, it's not enough just to bring down the old government; in addition it is crucial to build up another one. And in all of this, 'legitimacy' is from important up to crucial. Uh, without a lot of 'legitimacy', there is little basis for a crucial 'social contract' that will let the streets empty and the country get back to work. The newsies are suggesting that the only legitimacy needed is the shouting of the uncorrupted, sincere, dedicated, patriotic, native Egyptian youth, and this should bother you.

Next we come to what is likely the 'realpolitik' of this situation: Uh, even the most superficial reading of political history can show that the volume of screaming in the streets can be enormously amplified by some well-funded organization. Who and where might such funding and organization be from? How about from people who want to see Mubarak fall and have a chance of getting a government in Egypt they like much better? Net, can't take every 'Egyptian patriot' shouting in the streets at face value.

For the good of Egypt and most of the world, I'd say:

Without a legitimate government, Egypt could descend into civil war, heavily about Islamic theocracy versus 'Western democracy', that could spread from Casablanca east to Afghanistan and further east to the Philippines, block the Suez Canal, disrupt world oil, start a war with Israel, and lead to WWIII.

If a theocracy takes over Egypt, then it would be Sunni like UBL. However, I can believe that even the Shiite Iranians would prefer a Sunni theocracy in Egypt to a Western secular democracy friendly with the US.

To avoid civil war, etc., Egypt needs a government with at least what passes for 'legitimacy'.

For the sake of at least legitimacy, the 'process' Egypt has for selecting a government should continue. In particular, the legitimacy of the present government should not be destroyed by shouting in the streets and, in particular, then replaced by a government with even less legitimacy and, thus, more risk of civil war.

For the sake of legitimacy, Mubarak should stay in office until September as planned.

Uh, the original idea of democracy was to settle differences at the ballot box instead of in the streets.

If the people in the streets are a genuine, patriotic, indigenous, spontaneous political movement representing a significant fraction of the people of Egypt, then good: They should do well in the elections in September and do good for Egypt afterward.

But what the newsies want, for Mubarak just to leave office, is mostly just so that the newsies can have a 'story' and is irresponsible and risks blood in the streets up to WWIII. I'm still working but am having difficulty constructing even more contempt for the newsies than I have already: Their job is to find a fuel leak, throw lighted matches, and then write their 'stories' awful conflagration.

In getting Mubarak to leave before September, the people in Egypt should be careful about what they wish for because they might get it.

Mubarak to step down tonight

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