The Commuter Bike Redesigned and Electrified

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/03/the-commuter-bike-redesigned-and-electrified/

by ot • 15 years ago

49 59 15 years ago

pogue.blogs.nytimes.com

daniel02216• 15 years ago

That's pretty sweet. But $500 is where it'll catch on, not $3,600.

sliverstorm2• 15 years ago

Seriously, I can buy 4 motorcycles for that kind of money.

idheitmann• 15 years ago

Anyone who has built their own bikes quickly realizes how easy it is to get to the order of thousands. $3500 for carbon fiber is fairly reasonable.

davidw• 15 years ago

It'd feel awfully strange riding a bike without my hands out in front of me. Also:

* My crappy commuter bike probably costs between 1 and 5% of the price of this thing.

* How's it deal with rain/dirt?

* Sometimes I do want to just lock it up. Imagine going to the grocery store... at 22 pounds you don't want to haul it around inside. I have a lot more peace of mind locking up my cheap commuter bike outside.

Still, it looks like it's beautifully engineered.

buro9• 15 years ago

It was either going to be you or I who responded ;)

My biggest concern when I saw this originally was the emergency braking scenario. Which basically involves doing a face plant and using your nose and forehead to slow you down by embedding it in the floor.

One of the selling points mentioned in the article is, "you can jump forward off the bike in a crisis; there’s no hardware in your way". Which seems strange as every accident I've had or come perilously close to has been hitting something head-on (from the cyclist perspective... such as peds who walk out in front of you, or cars coming out from a side street).

The weirdest thing I find though is just the speed. These things tend to be speed limited as this helps classify them separately from the soon to be coming breed of electric scooters and motorcycles. Obv' electric bike manufacturers do not want to be forced in complying with that set of regulations and all that it entails. But the speed limiting is such that even a commuter on a cheap bike is going to be going the same speed, and a fit commuter will achieve a higher average speed than someone on this thing.

Derbasti7• 15 years ago

My thoughts exactly. I guess they put the battery in the tail end to keep it from flipping over when breaking. Still, it seems kind of dangerous.

As for speed, many cyclists will go considerably faster than any of these things, especially if it goes downhill. It might spoil some of the fun to be regularly overtaken by muscle-powered bikes...

delackner2• 15 years ago

On the "face plant when braking" angle, even a normal bicycle is at risk for this with a lot of handlebar designs, like the simple straight length of tube I have. I slammed my brakes once last year when a car turned in front of me, and the bike stopped. I kept going, yanking the bicycle to then fly over me.

* At speed I now always brace my arms behind the handlebar. * Damn I'm glad I was wearing gel padded gloves. * I am very much considering different handlebars.

JoeAltmaier• 15 years ago

A road bike is a piece of athletic equipment. It can be maneouvered in several ways to emergency brake, drastically swerve or accelerate to avoid an accident.

This little thing looks more like a tea cart. With you as the bumper. No way am I riding this dangerous little thing.

sliverstorm2• 15 years ago

How's it deal with rain/dirt?

Forget that, how's it even deal with rough/uneven pavement!?

atgm2• 15 years ago

You can buy regular bicycles with little electric motors on them here in Japan for about $1,000. That seems a lot more reasonable than completely redesigning the bicycle...

flipbrad• 15 years ago

I doubt many japanese take those on the subway though! I don't recall seeing standard bicycles on the tokyo metro at all, in fact.

To the person who said you prefer to lock it up outside a grocery store - what exactly stops you from doing that with this device?

The cost is a major stumbling block; mind you, I see a lot of heinously expensive road bikes around London, and I suppose their actual utility is lower (harder to take onto buses and rail services; harder to store at home, in the street or at the office; not electric)

I'd be interested to see a study done on the device's eco credentials; I've heard persuasive arguments that electric bikes are greener than pedal powered bikes when you consider the petrochemical requirements of a pedal bike's energy source (your food)...

atgm2• 15 years ago

No subway out where I live. Plenty of older people use them because of the hills/mountains out here. You can see them on the buses that take bikes, or the non-JR train lines that let you take bikes.

po3• 15 years ago

Seems kind of overdone. You can barely use the sidewalk in Tokyo without getting knocked down by a middle-aged woman with a huge sun-visor, a bag of groceries and two kids strapped to something like this:

http://us.sanyo.com/Commercial-eneloop-bike

They're just like a regular bike but they assist you when you climb up hills or just plain get tired. The battery behind the seat-tube slides out for a recharge. I would say about 20% of the bikes you see parked by a train station are electric hybrids.

edit: I will say though, that the foldability part of this is nice, but I prefer the hybrid approach of a standard bike.

ot2• 15 years ago

IMHO the foldability part is the main point. The typical usage seems to be home -> bus or tube stop -> public transport -> office. Here in UK you can't take bycicles in buses or tube. There are indeed foldable bikes (http://www.brompton.co.uk/) but they are a pain to (un)fold and they are not electric.

Still, price and limited autonomy are real issues. At 1K$ and 20 miles of autonomy I would probably buy one.

samatman2• 15 years ago

As a ridiculously happy Brompton owner and fanboy (how's that for a disclaimer!) let me assure you that they are no pain at all to fold or unfold.

I have challenged a dozen people to get their bikes locked to a post in the time it takes me to fold the Brommy. No one has succeeded to date.

noonespecial• 15 years ago

Bicycles enjoy a kind of special status in the US when it comes to tort law and manufacturer liability that is shared with many other older designs. People know they are dangerous and automatically accept this. Things like table saws, ladders, kitchen knives, and roller skates are other examples of things that fit this category.

Inventors of this type of device face a steep uphill climb in the litigious climate of today's United States because its so completely different than traditional bikes. I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just saying that things like this will be magnets for the lawsuit-lottery.

I wonder what the ratio of lawsuits/Segway vs. lawsuits/Schwinn happens to be...

anateus• 15 years ago

Clearly someone hasn't read PG's The Trouble With The Segway: http://paulgraham.com/segway.html

gjm11• 15 years ago

PG says: "Someone riding a motorcycle isn't working any harder. But because he's sitting astride it, he seems to be making an effort. When you're riding a Segway you're just standing there." and: "So there may be a way to capture more of the market Segway hoped to reach: make a version that doesn't look so easy for the rider. It would also be helpful if the styling was in the tradition of skateboards or bicycles rather than medical devices."

This thing does in fact look rather like a bicycle, and the rider does sit astride it. Perhaps the YikeBike people have read PG's note about the Segway.

On the other hand, I think it still makes it look as if the rider is "too lazy to walk". If that (rather than, say, the $3600 price tag) makes the YikeBike fail, then it'll indicate that PG's basic analysis was right even though his proposed ways of solving the problem were wrong.

arethuza2• 15 years ago

"When he rides the Eunicycle, people smile at him"

There is a chap who commutes through central Edinburgh on a unicycle and it does indeed cheer me up every time I see him.

Derbasti7• 15 years ago

Frankly, I don't see the point of electric bicycles. I have not seen any electric bicycle that offered any real advantage to a normal muscle-operated one.

As a matter of fact, bicycles are one of the oldest and most refined technologies available to us. They are marvelously efficient, they are light and versatile. Adding an electric motor and battery makes them heavy, limits your range and decreases the amount of control you have over the bike. Which is nice for, say, elderly people.

And maybe you are American and you don't know this, but many European countries have excellent biking routes everywhere and cars actually brake for cyclists. All that talk about cycling being dangerous is mainly an American problem. In most other countries, bikes are actually a lot safer than cars for the simple reason that they don't go as fast.

I think bicycles are plain fun. I ride my bicycle to work whenever I can. I love my bicycles. All three of them!

paganel• 15 years ago

> I think bicycles are plain fun. I ride my bicycle to work whenever I can.

I would do the same, if only we'd have a decent shower at our workplace, so that I won't smell all day after a bike-ride from home. Nevertheless, I can't wait for this winter to be finally over so that I can take my bike for photo-taking rides outside the city I live in. (if it matters, I'm a fellow (East-)European whose city doesn't have that many bike-lines, but it doesn't matter anyway, cause I've first ridden a bike on a national road at age 12, so nothing scares me :) ).

tzs3• 15 years ago

> I have not seen any electric bicycle that offered any real advantage to a normal muscle-operated one.

Some people don't have showering facilities at work, or do not want to carry a change of clothes with them. An electric bike is less likely to produce a stinky cyclist.

Derbasti7• 15 years ago

Most electric bicycles only enhance your own pedaling. This makes you faster, but it won't make you sweat less as you can still exert the same force (only to greater effect). In other words, if sweating is the problem, ride slower.

Personally, I ride slowly to work, and fast back.

jdietrich• 15 years ago

This is absolutely the number one error people from non-bicycling nations make about utility cycling.

Don't want to get sweaty? Just use your gears and slow down. You don't run to the corner store, you walk. Likewise with cycling to work - it's easy to travel at a comfortable pace that won't leave you sweaty or out of breath.

pmccool2• 15 years ago

I see electric bicycles as a tool to help people build a bit of exercise into their daily commute. I'm all for that. I'm a bit leery of devices like this, which help people build no exercise at all into their daily commute.

othello• 15 years ago

As a matter of fact, bicycles are one of the oldest and most refined technologies available to us.

Bicycles can hardly be considered an old technology. While Da Vinci had already sketched some designs in the late 15th century [1], the first prototypes could not be built before the early 19th century.

The first recognizable version of the current chain-driven models was only produced in 1885. [2]

The chain-driven bicycle is not as simple as it looks.

[1] http://www.ltolman.org/davinci.htm [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycles

Derbasti7• 15 years ago

Show me another widespread technology that exists since the late 1800s and that has not been completely replaced by another technology. Most technologies get replaced by newer 'disruptive' technologies in rather short times (think gasoline vs. steam vs. electricity for trains or turbine vs. gasoline for planes).

The 'driving force' for bicycles has stayed virtually the same (human muscles), but the transmissions and layouts have been improved steadily. Only the advent of hybrid electric-and-muscle driven e-bikes can be seen as an actual revolution in cycling technology.

neves• 15 years ago

Leonardo's bike design is a hoax: http://www.cyclepublishing.com/history/leonardo%20da%20vinci...

jwr• 15 years ago

Agreed. I would much rather have a normal, folding bike. However, I have to admit that these guys got the folding part right. I think folding bike design hasn't really progressed much over the years. People rave about Brompton bikes, but I am not impressed by how they fold, what they fold into, or their weight.

And while I would not pay the exorbitant price for this thing, I would gladly pay a significant amount of money for a modern folding bike. Say, with a carbon fiber frame instead of a steel one.

kristiandupont• 15 years ago

Most electric bikes might not offer much advantage but this one is obviously very compact compared to a normal bike. That is a major advantage to some people.

rue2• 15 years ago

Actually, pedelecs are getting rather common right here in the EU. In addition to still requiring pedaling oneself, I think most countries restrict the power output somehow; here it's max 250W and turns off at 25km/h. And sure, you probably shouldn't embark on a 100km ride but the batteries are certainly sufficient to last a daily commute, <50km, and are only going to get better.

One thing I, as a racing-type cyclist, suffered from was the feeling that it was somehow “unfair” that people would have assistance cycling, but it's really an entirely different beast: there's cycling, and then there's transportation by means of a bicycle. By all means love your bicycles – I like mine very much – but pedelecs don't really detract anything from you.

A pedelec won't make people lazier, it enables them to use their bike loaded heavier, in worse conditions[1] and with less effort which is important if they aren't terribly fit or don't want to sweat on their way to work. This translates to more people riding. I'd argue that there's enough exercise involved to actually get direct health gains, but even assuming there's not, we still get the benefit of fewer cars on the roads and a better environment for cycling when drivers and politicians are forced to really pay attention to it (it may shock you to know that in many places in the EU, while certainly better than most of the US, cycling life still is a bit dangerous and inconvenient).

[1] The weather in the winter here is such that bike commutes take 50-200% more time than in the summer even when you work twice as hard. I know a few people who run an electric in the winter: the result is that they get to ride at an effort level comparable to that in the summer.

Derbasti7• 15 years ago

I completely agree! And I didn't want to say that pedelecs are a bad thing. My grandfather owns one and it enables him to go cycling with his children and grandchildren. That is awesome!

RiderOfGiraffes• 15 years ago

Previous discussions:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=806150

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=810787

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1161537

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1275109

diziet• 15 years ago

It seems horribly unsafe in case of an accident. Sure, 15mph is turtle speed when it comes to bicycles (disclosure: I've been racing road bicycles for five years) but you can still get hurt pretty horribly if you fly out of that thing. There's no frame/hand compression to stop you.

Also, it doesn't look like a bicycle, at least compared to something in the similar price range: http://www.londoncyclesport.com/Assets/LondonCycleSport+Digi...

arethuza2• 15 years ago

Not to mention he isn't wearing a helmet!

[NB I've had one accident where a helmet definitely saved my life and a couple of close calls - two my own fault cycling off road and another where kids threw a brick at me].

pmccool2• 15 years ago

The more I think about it, the more the 6-mile range sounds like a crippling flaw. Hills and headwinds will presumably knock this around, but that aside, there's just so little room for error. Forget to charge, make a short detour to buy groceries and there you are walking home with a bag full of perishables and an immobile chunk of carbon fibre.

Nice to see some attention paid to lighting though. It's an important issue for commuter bikes, and one that doesn't seem to get as much attention as it should.

lacerus• 15 years ago

I tried an electric GoCycle the other day. It is the best looking folding bike I've ever seen, reaches 30 km/h (faster than all other cyclists around you) and you don't smell when you arrive at work.

http://store.gocycle.com/

Also you can fold it up and take the subway if it starts to rain unexpectedly.

ntoshev• 15 years ago

That's too far from the bike concept and way too expensive.

I may try electrifying my bike, a local guy does this and it looks reasonable. You can see the pictures here:

http://prodavalnik.com/sglobyavam-elektricheski-velosipedi-p...

For the electro-motor, inverter, controls and batteries you pay:

1. 250W motor 36V+ lead-acid battery (3 х 12V 9Ah)- 300 €

2. 250W motor 36V+ lead-acid battery (3 х 12V 14Ah)- 323 €

3. 250W motor 36V+ li-ion battery (36V 10Ah)- 524 €

4. 250W motor 36V+ lithium iron phosphate battery (36V 12Ah)- 633 €

4. 250W motor 36V+ lithium iron phosphate battery (36V 15Ah)- 790 €

5. 500W motor 36V+ lead-acid battery (3 бр.х 12V 9Ah)- 338 €

6. 500W motor 36V+ lead-acid battery (3 бр.х 12V 14Ah)-363 €

7. 500W motor 36V+ lithium iron phosphate battery (36V 12Ah)- 674 €

8. 500W motor 36V+ lithium iron phosphate battery (36V 15Ah)- 830 €

9. 800W motor 48V+ lithium iron phosphate battery (48V 15Ah)- 980 €

10. 1000W motor 48V+ lithium iron phosphate battery (48V 15Ah)- 1025 €

Range is 30-80 km and you can always pedal more. I think this product could be a hit, with a bit better design and manufactured at scale.

mechanical_fish• 15 years ago

I don't know about the bike itself, but the pricing is an excellent innovation. Now I can buy the Brompton of my dreams, secure in the knowledge that I'm getting an amazing bargain.

In other news, it might be time to reread Cialdini. ;)

marknutter2• 15 years ago

Too bad you look like an idiot riding one of these things. There's a huge barrier of entry for strange and unique transportation devices, and that's the strong aversion most people have to sticking out like a sore thumb.

marknutter2• 15 years ago

A better alternative was already invented years ago: http://totallyabsurd.com/bethebike.htm

The Commuter Bike Redesigned and Electrified

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