Dog insurer: 'jumping, running, slipping, tripping, playing' not covered (2016)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pet-insurer-says-dog-not-covered-if-injured-jumping-running-slipping-tripping-or-playing-1.3781371

by pseudolus • 7 years ago

88 77 7 years ago

cbc.ca

Waterluvian6• 7 years ago

Pet insurers, at least in Canada, are just an industry of highway robbery. They deny everything and make you fight up hill for anything. You're usually better off paying a premium into a TFSA or other savings apparatus and be your own insurer.

dylan604• 7 years ago

How is this different from human health providers? They deny everything, and force you to fight them as well. Maybe Canadian health insurance is different, but in the US, it is exactly as you describe pet insurance.

Waterluvian6• 7 years ago

That's unbelievably depressing.

Canadian health insurers haven't been involved in any of the surgeries or pregnancies in my family. Where they were involved: dentists, massages, medications, I've never had any hassle.

Dealing with a pet insurer was eye opening. I can't imagine having to deal with that while a loved one was sick.

Pigo9• 7 years ago

Every insurance company I've had is upfront with their coverage, and covered it just fine. I've never had a major illness like cancer, maybe that is a next level situation that would require legal representation.

The big problem seems to be the soaring prices due to the fight between insurance companies and the hospitals. Depending on who you ask, you get a different opinion on who's fault it is.

chmod7752• 7 years ago

In many countries public insurance can't deny anything.

Costs for various treatments are already negotiated ahead of time and hospitals/doctors bill insurers directly.

If the insurer thinks you received some kind of treatment you shouldn't have, it's between them and the hospital/doctor.

Of course there's always the odd/fancy treatment people insist on getting that is not covered. In that case you'll be billed by the hospital.

In neither case you'll be fighting any insurance company personally.

briandear• 7 years ago

My health insurance doesn’t deny everything. The hyperbole of “they deny everything” is just false.

CGamesPlay• 7 years ago

What's the maximum cost of a treatment for a dog versus a human? I don't know the pet/human insurance actuarial values, but I'd guess that a person under regular insurance could reasonably build up a savings to cover pet expenses, not so for US healthcare.

reaperducer3• 7 years ago

They deny everything, and force you to fight them as well. Maybe Canadian health insurance is different, but in the US, it is exactly as you describe pet insurance.

Worthless political echo chamber hyperbole and demonstrably false.

Just off the top of my head: Virtually every American with health insurance can get flu shots for free, paid for by their insurance carrier. Ditto for women who want birth control pills (though that is usually a legislative mandate).

A friend works for a small insurance company, and she says it paid over a billion dollars in claims last year for fewer than 50k members.

amiga_500• 7 years ago

It's not directly comparable. If you live in a poorer country like the USA good health coverage will be the exception.

rconti• 7 years ago

You can choose whether or not to have a pet, and you can typically afford pet repairs and maintenance.

tonyarkles• 7 years ago

Canadian health insurance is dramatically different. My provincial health card covers pretty much everything except drugs, dental, and optometry. Many drugs are partially covered too and have a small patient co-pay. Drugs in hospital are covered 100% as far as I know (I’ve been in the hospital a few times and have never gotten a bill for anything).

The last few times I can think of paying for anything other than glasses/contacts:

- $40 for a doctor visit and x-ray when I sprained my wrist and had forgotten to renew my health card. Reimbursed when I did renew.

- $25 for a month supply of bupropion (Zyban) for quitting smoking

- $9 for a bottle of Tylenol-3 after my knee surgery (completely covered otherwise)

Things that have been covered 100%:

- stitches when I got kicked in the head while tubing behind a boat

- stitches when I sliced my finger open with a knife (stupid kid stuff)

- appendectomy

- knee surgery #1 - meniscus cartilage tear when I was a kid, didn’t start acting up until my 20s. This included an MRI, a consult with a sports medicine surgeon, and the surgery

- knee surgery #2 - same knee, tore it up again 5 years later while skiing. Only cost here was optional physiotherapy afterwards, at $50/session.

asdfasdfaaaa• 7 years ago

Let me put this in perspective: I'm 28 years old, lived in 3 different countries, two of them in Europe and one of them in America. I've never paid out-of-pocket for health care in my life. I've broken bones, had anaesthesia surgery, 4 teeth removed, dental care, cleanings, hospital stays, I've had a kid 3 months ago (everything pregnancy-related, post-partum clinic), skin care, optician, dietician, psychiatrist, etc etc etc...

The concept itself of fighting either my health-care provider or my (state-mandated) health insurance to get coverage is completely foreign to me and I'm only familiar with it thru the Internet by reading what people from the USA write.

mindslight• 7 years ago

The difference is that human health "insurance" is de-facto mandatory due to rampant price inflation as well as continual lobbying to increase their moat, whereas pet care costs haven't quite spiraled out of control yet so we can easily reject the scam.

Overextending yourself, glossing it over with an extended warranty, and abdicating your pet's health to corporate cost-optimization is not a nice thing to do. The hard-to-hear responsible thing is to not get a pet until you're in the financial position to take care of them!

Let us hope this whole idea of "pet insurance" will be history in several years, rather than it succeeding in turning the veterinary industry into an overfinancialized clusterfuck like human healthcare.

sevilo• 7 years ago

I live in Canada and never had this problem. The only frustrating part is they take a long time to process and not ideal for people who live pay cheque to pay cheque

mrfusion• 7 years ago

Check out self paid dental insurance. I spent hours going over the plans and basically couldn’t find any scenario where I’d come out ahead.

1123581321• 7 years ago

Our family dental plan is the cost of about 10 cleanings a year, so it’s not a great deal, but we exceed that number and have also used the reduced fee for fillings a few times.

Dental’s historic lack of insurance and relative ease of opening a clinic has obviously made it much more cost-competitive than medical care, so we kind of feel like we are contributing to a future problem by using dental insurance, but it’s hard to turn down the savings now.

froindt5• 7 years ago

...so we kind of feel like we are contributing to a future problem by using dental insurance, but it’s hard to turn down the savings now.

I agree. It feels awful to make a rational choice in your best interest and to see the mess it can cause at scale. The reason health insurance is such a mess in the US was from a tit-for-tat battle of people operating in a rational way (providers, insurance companies, and drug companies).

Insurance companies have pre-negotiated rates for everything. I didn't like paying for my dental insurance, and asked my dentist what the cost would be for 2 cleanings/year with no insurance. Something like $120/cleaning and another $75 for x-rays periodically. No cash discount because they'd run into legal issues by offering a better rate for non-insured patients.

My insurance is around $10/month. Since I get my teeth cleaned 2x/year, the rational choice is to buy my insurance and realize I breakeven after the first cleaning. But it feels bad. If my dentist is getting $40/cleaning through insurance, I'd rather be able to pay him $45/cleaning and keep insurance out of it all.

twoodfin• 7 years ago

It’s very difficult to sell “insurance” for something 100% of people will need.

At the end of the day, it’s just a marketing plan for the covered dentists.

lotsofpulp3• 7 years ago

In the US, it's just a way for employers to offer tax free income to employees.

And nowadays, it's morphed into a crazy scheme where large Dental Service Organizations (DSO) offer super cheap cleanings to the insurance, and then treat their dentists and hygienists like sales staff who try to push bullshit like fluoride treatments and sealants with 1,000% markups that you have to pay for out of pocket.

It's crazy what the situation is, I stopped going to certain dental practices and had to find an independent one I could trust. I'd almost rather forego the employer provided insurance cleanings and pay cash just to makes sure the incentives are aligned and the dentists and hygienists aren't trying to scam me.

polski-g2• 7 years ago

Exactly my experience. I just pay cash for the four cleanings I get a year. It's only $60 per quarter.

MichaelApproved2• 7 years ago

You get 4 cleanings a year? Is that typical? My dentist recommends one every 6 months.

Pigo9• 7 years ago

Would you like to pay $20 for a protection plan on your new foot massager?

What makes me the most upset about these little games of chance companies want us to play, is how it takes advantage of certain demographics, like the elderly.

froindt5• 7 years ago

For $3 I could get protection on my ~$20 Sonicare toothbrush heads from Walmart. It's a premium, consumable item.

That offer really caught me off guard.

Pigo9• 7 years ago

Yeah, it used to be just for televisions or other big purchases. But they're making so much money off of these things, it's creeping into smaller and smaller purchases. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who don't understand upselling, they're just excited about their new toothbrush.

reaperducer3• 7 years ago

I looked into health insurance for my cat a few months ago. The quoted premium was more than what I and my employer pay to cover my entire family of humans. And this was for a single four-year-old spayed cat with no history of health problems.

MichaelApproved2• 7 years ago

I'm trying to make sense of this but then I realized, maybe you're not American and your health insurance premium is somewhat reasonable.

Care to share more? What was the premium for the cat? Are you American?

voxic11• 7 years ago

Yeah except they get their insurance through their employer, so probably American.

hirundo• 7 years ago

Moral: Read the fine print. Especially on insurance plans. Expect loopholes, and if you don't find them, read it again, more carefully. Yes, it can be a lot of work. You might end up not buying just because you can't understand it. But if you go in expecting the insurer to pay out on the basis of what you think is "reasonable", you're not going to do due diligence. Expect each claim to be adversarial, so you can be pleasantly surprised by the exceptions.

imgabe• 7 years ago

The moral is don't buy insurance for anything where the loss wouldn't ruin you financially unless legally required.

awinter-py• 7 years ago

revel moped rentals have an insurance plan that's dependent on compliance with their entire rental agreement, including maintaining a safe driving record. seems like a catch 22.

4.01 'Revel provides third party auto liability coverage ... if the Member complies ... with all terms and conditions of this Agreement'

2.06 'maintain a safe driving record during the entire Term'

https://gorevel.com/rental-agreement/

consumers have been generally willing to sign long contracts without reading them but small businesses with legal resources are going to start getting burned by their vendors and insisting on shorter, simpler, fairer contracts (I hope). These contracts are pure slime.

GuB-42• 7 years ago

Catch-22

The insurance policy doesn't cover running, jumping, playing... Things that any healthy dog do. But they also don't cover "preexisting conditions".

So... if your dog doesn't play, he is unhealthy and therefore he isn't covered.

CWuestefeld2• 7 years ago

Our vet advised us against buying insurance. He said that in his experience, the policies tend to exclude a given dog breed's common maladies. So, for example, if your German Shepard ever got hip displasia, it wouldn't be covered.

We had Buster, the GSD, for 13 years and over the course of that time his vet treatments cost a fair amount in addition to normal stuff

* Root canal (he broke a fang chewing a rock)

* 2x surgery for ACLs in both hind legs

* surgery to remove carcinoma on his jaw

* prednisone shots for arthritis

That probably comes to something around $10K over those 13 years. But really, it's not that different from what we'd have been paying in premiums anyway.

mikemac• 7 years ago

I have a standard poodle and the breed is particularly susceptible to GDV (Gastric Dilatation-Volvulus).

My dog got it suddenly at around 1.5 years old and our insurance paid out for the full emergency surgery (about 5k) with no issues; as with any providers the details are what matter.

silverlake• 7 years ago

My pet insurance has been very good about covering most issues. It's marketed by the ASPCA, provided by www.cfpetinsurance.com. I've been very happy with their service.

ab_testing• 7 years ago

The sad reality is that similar shenanigans are employed by health insurance companies in the US. Every year millions of claims are denied for frivolous reasons by health insurance companies and often times, the denier is a person with no or very little medical knowledge compared to their doctor. Just that there are human lives instead of pet lives on the line.

lotsofpulp3• 7 years ago

the denier is a person with no or very little medical knowledge compared to their doctor.

This is not true. There are teams of MDs and PharmDs that evaluate what treatment options are effective and are backed up with data, and they create the criteria with which to determine what is appropriate or not based on the persons medical history and chart notes. Also, employers and governments often provide insurance (or better named managed care organizations - MCO) companies with the criteria of what they want to pay for, so many times it’s not even up to the MCOs themselves.

Dog insurer: 'jumping, running, slipping, tripping, playing' not covered (2016)

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