Ask HN: Should a tech founder look for a non-tech co-founder?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=215175

by BlueSkies • 18 years ago

23 33 18 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Assume a solo tech founder has all the skills needed to complete a given Web application for a startup. What would be more valuable in a co-founder - additional tech skills to get to a prototype quicker or someone with seasoned startup experience to help seek funding, work on marketing, business plan, recruiting, etc?

davidw2• 18 years ago

Yes: they'll be able to cover things you aren't as comfortable with, and thus complement your own skills.

No: since you're 'looking', it'll be hard to find someone you trust thoroughly enough to really share the work with. It's easy for non-tech types to dream up lots of hard things to code.

ph0rque• 18 years ago

so ideally, find a 'business' person who has dabbled in web dev...

BlueSkies4• 18 years ago

My thinking was to continue to lead the technical vision for the service, with the non-tech co-founder sharing learned experiences and leading other aspects of the company startup.

davidw2• 18 years ago

All things considered, I think what I've picked up from the books and articles like 'founders at work' is to go with whoever you're really comfortable with, and trust, on a personal level. Someone that you "go way back with". (Yes, that's a catch 22 if you're looking for one now:-/ )

Mystalic• 18 years ago

Your best bet, from my experience, is someone with the startup experience, business connections, marketing knowledge, and general know-how to execute on a completely different side of the business while you concentrate on the prototype.

But for best results, and to avoid the pitfall davidw pointed out, get someone who knows the basics of hacking too so he/she doesn't ask you to build a website that can shoot lasers out of the screen.

BlueSkies4• 18 years ago

Good advice. I had previously focussed my search on finding a fellow hacker, but was passing on some qualified business types. One of them happened to be a VC looking to try something new. I guess I was off track, but better to learn late than never ...

webwright• 18 years ago

Totally totally totally depends on what you're building. B2C? B2B? A business with lots of bizdev ops or no? Investment required or not? Is the core problem (or the way you want to attack it) a technology problem or a sales/distribution problem? Heck, or a design problem?

With the general question, I'll give you my best shot at a general answer. Building something people want to use is the first order problem where virtually every startup fails. Select a co-founder who will help you solve that problem. If you don't, funding, marketing, business plans, and recruiting aren't going to help much.

edw5192• 18 years ago

"Assume a solo tech founder has all the skills needed to complete a given Web application for a startup."

A huge assumption.

If you're wrong about that and you get a non-tech co-founder, you're toast.

Personally, I'd hedge my bets with a second tech and worry about the non-tech stuff later.

I have been in the exact same situation twice before and here's what happened both times: I was working 100 hour weeks and my partner was bored. Then he went out and oversold what I could have delivered. A disaster. Twice. (You'd think I'd have learned.)

The problem isn't whether you have the skills for what is needed. It's whether you have the time to do it. I underestimated what it would take and didn't account for all kinds of stuff. It's a very easy trap to fall into, believe me. The stuff that bites you in the butt down the line will be technical; count on it.

I would have traded either non-technical partner for a fellow hacker in a heartbeat. If I had, who knows, you may have been reading this at Eddie News instead while I typed it from my yacht. Don't make the same mistake as me. Get another tech.

BlueSkies4• 18 years ago

Perhaps its the fact that I'm in the Boston area (instead of the West coast), but I've had problems connecting with a good hacker co-founder. Most that I've met are looking for co-founders themselves for their own ideas ... I'd join a different startup, but I think I've got a good idea with a rare domain to boot.

edw5192• 18 years ago

I hear ya. Keep at it.

cstejerean• 18 years ago

next time take your guess at how long something will take and multiply it by 3. Sounds like a joke but I've been surprised at the number of times this has worked out.

ralphb• 18 years ago

Ah, but you forgot Hofstadter's law:

  "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take Hofstadter's Law into account."

adrianwaj3• 18 years ago

You'll need both soon enough, then the question is who becomes the CEO out of the tech founder and the business founder and when. If you can make the business founder a CEO comfortably then that would be a plus.

BlueSkies4• 18 years ago

But who should come in at #2 versus #3? My thinking is that the business co-founder might end up as CEO, but from what I've learned the simple title of "co-founder" for everyone might work best at the early stages.

adrianwaj3• 18 years ago

Hire them both simultaneously if you can, and make the business person CEO. Make sure he can pitch well and that he can manage you through growth having shown such experience elsewhere.

tom• 18 years ago

All of the skills you mention are valuable if you can find someone with "seasoned startup experience". They're not growing on trees (last I looked from my perch). A couple of questions for you to think about.

Do you have the experience in the space you are trying to attack? If not, you best be looking for someone, either technical or not, who does, who can speak to the market, and investors about the market (or angels FROM the market). Also, what's your next milestone? Is it your first paying customer, or is it a demo that will not be launch ready? What will his/her first milestone be? Is there enough work at present to keep a biz person busy in exchange for the equity? There will ALWAYS be enough todo's on the list of the developers... In short, are you sure you're ready for a non-technical founder?

BTW: my cofounder is non-technical (I'm sure he'd love to see me describe him as such). I asked him aboard before I'd written even a hundred lines of code. Why? Because he knows the market well and has professional experience / knowledge that I, or likely any other hacker, couldn't hope to pick up in any reasonable amount of time. If that's what you need - then get looking ... they are worth their weight in gold and very, very hard to find!

mdasen• 18 years ago

It's a double edged sword.

On the positive: they're good at marketing, getting in people's faces, getting the word out, getting people on board, etc. I just can't talk to advertisers so I'd end up with AdWords getting less revenue. I'd be bad at promoting the thing so there'd be fewer users.

On the negative: most of them have no f'in clue what makes any sense in technology. They don't use it enough. Their ideas will be something like, "maybe we should do something like eBay, but with a better rating system". They'll come up with a lot of nonsense that isn't useful - but they don't know that since they just don't use computers and the internet as much as we do. Of course, they're a bit arrogant (it's why they're good in part one) so they think you should be following their lead.

You need to find someone that can do part 1 without being so full of themselves that they think they know how to build a webapp and that you're just code in human form. It's hard because most of those types like to think of themselves as the "idea person" rather than doing the work of promoting, forming partnerships, etc. Their "idea" is crap and been done before. You need someone to do the non-code heavy lifting.

adrianwaj3• 18 years ago

It would be interesting to get an older business co-founder who was once (or still is) a programmer and knows both how and how not to manage programmers. A Steve Jobs, Eric Schmidt or Paul Graham type character, someone who doesn't get in the way but still knows what's going on.

dkokelley• 18 years ago

I'm conducting a sort of experiment with my own life. I've seen a lot of threads here about "Hackers vs. Bus. Development/marketing" and so I've decided that the debate must be settled.

When I was 14, I learned all I needed to build a Battlebot. I wanted to enter the show. I designed and built a frame, and filled it with the electrical components to make it work. It was pretty fun actually. I've spent time passively researching programming but never found the time to take it up to a usable level. I only know a few things and can understand some programming jokes. I've built a couple of websites and I have a decent understanding of how that whole "internet contraption" works. Basically, I consider myself a form of hacker, at least, whatever form can exist that doesn't know how to program for beans.

After accepting all of this, and seeing what type of person it appears I am, I've decided to major in marketing (and possibly double in finance). I've done a few businesses of my own and have a decent understanding of the marketing and development involved in making it succeed.

In the end (about 2-3 years from now), I will be what I would consider a well rounded tech and business focused individual.

Because of my obvious inexperience in programming, I think any startup I create or join will use me in a business development fashion, rather than as a hacker (even if I were to obtain a working knowledge of a language).

My goal is to be that marketing guy who also understands and appreciates what goes into building the product, instead of being the one who is purely an "idea person" with little experience with computers and the internet.

I want to prove to myself and others that it's possible to have both the right and left side of the brain working for you to help create something great.

rokhayakebe• 18 years ago

Get a Business Graduate with Hacking skills. They exist.

When hiring for a startup you can afford someone with A or B. In the worst case scenario you need someone with A and B. In the best case you need someone with A and B (assuming both are skills), and Passionated about what you are doing.

It turns out that the majority of talented people are not "willing" to startup, but you can find one if you look hard enough.

ScottWhigham2• 18 years ago

But the mere fact that you felt the need to include "... They exist." shows how rare they are. If you waited around until you found a "Business Graduate with Hacking skills" that also fit all the other things needed to be an entrepreneur (and that you actually liked) you might never get going...

prakash• 18 years ago

Whoever you find first that meets your hiring criteria.

Also I would not put it as a tech vs. non tech co-founder; rather hire for complimentary skills so that as a team you can cover most of the functions.

mrtron• 18 years ago

One big concern you should have is this: Can you recognize a talented and driven non-technical person?

Just as one great developer can do ten times the work as an average developer with far less problems, the same holds true with marketing, business, etc.

So, it may be more of a challenge than you expect finding someone, and determining their skill level.

I also catch myself minimizing the value of certain business issues and maximizing the value of technical issues. I think that is a natural tendancy, so make sure you keep that in check. Best of luck.

ScottWhigham2• 18 years ago

Wow - great advice. People underestimate not only those things but their own skills at being able to recognize those qualities in someone in a different industry. I'm a tech person and it is extremely hard for me to evaluate someone from a marketing background to see if they are like me but for marketing (in terms of output/production/drive). It's just not natural. As an entreprenuer, I tend to be the optimist and think, "They are awesome!" b/c I'm enamored of their education/prior-job-experience. Maybe that's just me...

poppysan• 18 years ago

Marketing and funding can be a connections game. in my opinion, it's best to substitute years of sitting on a project with no connection to funding with giving a cut to a connected person with previous startup funding experience. Saves time and headache...

richesh• 18 years ago

Google: Larry Page + Sergey Brin (both technical) EBay: Pierre Omidyar & Chris Agarpao (both technical) Microsoft: Bill Gates & Marc McDonald (both technical) Apple: Steve Jobs & Steve Wozniak (both technical) PayPal: Max Levchin & Luke Nosek (both technical) (Yes, I know Peter Thiel is not technical, at least not on paper) Amazon: Jeff Bezos (technical) and probably hired a technical person at first.

I'm not saying its not possible to grow a company with a non-tech person, there are many examples where this has worked (PayPal could count as one). My point is that two tech-founders can get a product out fast if you work well together.

Although finding a hacker co-founder, is a whole another ball game. You really need to find someone who will take ownership of your idea as their own and move forward. This is soooo hard to find...soo hard...Good Luck!

aneesh2• 18 years ago

Steve Jobs is definitely not technical. He is, however, a marketer-par-excellence.

aneesh2• 18 years ago

1) Build the product 2) Sell the product

In that order. Get whoever you need to do that well.

ehedberg• 18 years ago

That works great, unless you want to survive. The right order is 1) Build the product 1) Sell the product. You won't know for sure what you're actually building until you're trying to sell it and have prospects looking at it. And if you're done building before you start selling, you a) won't have anything somebody wants to buy and b) will be flat broke. Just sayin.

menloparkbum2• 18 years ago

From personal experience, I'm going to say no, don't get a non-tech cofounder (exception made for clones of Steve Jobs.)

There is a lot of nontechnical stuff to do in a startup but it doesn't make sense to start most of it until you actually have something working.

yankees1• 18 years ago

Non-technical stuff like having a clue on how to actually make some money, maybe some domain expertise so you can actually solve a problem instead of just doing something cool? Yeah those can wait.

Hackers who dismiss the importance of being able to pull together and organize this type of work are just as bad as idea guys who think they can just get anybody to do this "really simple thing"..

menloparkbum2• 18 years ago

I had the same experience as edw519. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=215204

clb22• 18 years ago

I had this question many times. I think is better to have a tech co-founder, because you need to tryout your product and make buzz on the market. Then, the right people for marketing and business plan will come to you.

Ask HN: Should a tech founder look for a non-tech co-founder?

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