Why HN was slow and how Rtm fixed it

http://ycombinator.com/newsnews.html#19jan

by pg • 16 years ago

257 184 16 years ago

MikeCapone• 16 years ago

Neat. All I can say is: Thanks!

jey2• 16 years ago

> when [MzScheme] wants to find a thread to run, it asks the O/S kernel about each socket in turn to see if any input is ready

They've never heard of select()? </snark>

But really, is there some reason that it's hard to collect up all the fds at once or something?

kujawa2• 16 years ago

Read C10K? Both select() and poll() have this problem internally. You have to use one of the more advanced techniques available if you really want to scale. epoll(), kqueue() or friends.

jey2• 16 years ago

Rtm's phrasing implies that MzScheme is making a syscall for each socket in turn, so it sounds like it isn't even using the basic select() or poll().

wmf• 16 years ago

Based on RTM's description, it sounds like even select() would be a huge improvement. HN needs to solve the C100 problem before worrying about C10K.

caf• 16 years ago

poll() is slightly better than select(), because you only have to iterate over the file descriptors that were passed, rather than from 0 to nfds.

tmsh• 16 years ago

I imagine mzscheme is using select under the hood. But I'm surprised they're not using poll. There's something up with the racket page, so I'm not able to download the mzscheme source just now (via http://arclanguage.org/install), but that's one thing I've noticed in Python web server implementations. Side-stepping epoll, libevent and all that for a second, there's a tendency to use select (which uses an array of file descriptors; 0 to highest file descriptor) instead of poll (which isn't encumbered the same way).

I think in part there is a tendency, among server developers, correctly, to fear anything that looks like a busy wait (e.g., with the name poll). But really poll is just as asynchronous as select in this context (I don't know about FreeBSD's implementation -- but Linux puts to sleep wait queues the same way, afaik). It just doesn't suffer from the crazy indexing scheme of select....

At any rate, I didn't get a chance to finish probing the internals of what mzscheme uses. But if there's a way to substitute poll for select, it can often alleviate those issues of 900 requests queue up and you eventually have an fd with a value of 1024 or greater -- even though you may not have 1024 actual concurrent requests....

Though others feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I only comment because I came across a similar issue recently. This link may be useful too:

http://www.makelinux.net/ldd3/chp-6-sect-3.shtml

ETA. i finally got a copy of the most recent racket source (though probably not the one rtm and pg are using). but if anyone is curious, browse racket/src/network.c. the source version for mac uses a bunch of selects (e.g., for tcp-accept). replacing with poll might help.... the max number of FDs per login session is often 1024 by default. so you might want to bump that up if it's not already. and consider using poll.... just an idea.

gms• 16 years ago

Who's Filo? David Filo?

PStamatiou3• 16 years ago

That was my first thought and it would appear so. Filo was a big FreeBSDer

http://zer0.org/daemons/yahoobsd.html

spidaman• 16 years ago

Filo was a total hacker, reportedly still is. At least into the late 90's, he was active on the FreeBSD mailing lists with encyclopedic knowledge of SCSI card and NIC drivers and assorted other hardware and FreeBSD stuff. He was oft found sitting on the hallway floor in the first colo I used (ISI in Mountain View), screwdrivering the chassis' of Yahoo's early servers.

aristus• 16 years ago

Yep. He's still a mensch. Yahoo did some incredible stuff on Apache & FreeBSD back in the day. I remember a hack that added hardcoded HTTP headers to the image files on disk, to squeeze that extra nilth percent out of the server.

jcapote• 16 years ago

That's awesome!

ezalor6• 16 years ago

David Filo is the co-founder of Yahoo! if you don't know him.

strlen• 16 years ago

Yes. Having worked at Yahoo, this isn't even a bit surprising. rtm's capitalization of 'filo' as 'Filo' -- everybody spelled it lowercase i.e., as an /etc/passwd entry not a lastname -- is the surprising part.

Regardless of what you think of Yahoo's current situation, somebody who could easily retire wealthy but still hacks and flies economy class on Southwest to meetings in remote offices is worthy of respect.

zandorg• 16 years ago

Chief Yahoo.

sh1mmer• 16 years ago

Yahoo's entire BSD kernel team report to filo still.

Last time I had lunch with him we talked about the minutia of DNS server implementations because I was working on some optimization tricks and he was really interested in seeing them get implemented.

filo is a really amazing guy. He's the most down to earth billionaire I know. He talks way more about his family and hacking more than 'stuff'. If he isn't hacking on code as much as he used to it's because he cares about his company and is doing an important job looking after technical stuff that needs doing, even if it isn't interesting.

samdk• 16 years ago

The traffic graphs linked in this post [0] are an interesting addition to the "How often do you visit HN?" poll [1] that was done a week ago. From the graphs, it looks like there are about 10x as many page views as unique IPs.

[0] http://ycombinator.com/images/hntraffic-17jan11.png [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2090191

b_emery• 16 years ago

Anyone have an idea what the huge spikes in unique IP's are all about?

kabdib2• 16 years ago

I worked at a startup once that made a network card that did this type of buffering (wait for whole HTTP requests, then forward as a lump to the host, across a local fast bus).

Pretty whizzy, definitely helped server scaling.

We started shipping in 2001; the dot-com bust more or less canceled any interest in the product, and canceled the company, too . . .

pclark• 16 years ago

What was the name of the company/product?

kabdib2• 16 years ago

Akamba

rdj• 16 years ago

related but a little different (just FYI): some Intel nics can handle interrupt modulation. Decreased latency but wouldn't fix the open handle/scaling issues here.

earle• 16 years ago

HN only supports 20 req per second???

PStamatiou3• 16 years ago

flat files, no database

pg11• 16 years ago

That's not the bottleneck. Essentially there's an in-memory database (known as hash tables). Stuff is lazily loaded off disk into memory, but most of the frequently needed stuff is loaded once at startup.

The bottleneck is the amount of garbage created by generating pages. IIRC there is some horrible inefficiency involving UTF-8 characters.

imp• 16 years ago

Maybe that's just for dynamic pages. Probably most of the most popular pages are cached and wouldn't be considered in that 20 req/sec. Just my own wild guess though.

dauphin10• 16 years ago

That's 0.05 second for a single request: actually pretty good.

nc17• 16 years ago

YC ranks 2400 on Alexa, and I'm sure most of the traffic is HN. I bet you'd be hard-pressed to find a top 10k site written in Scheme. Does anyone know of one?

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ycombinator.com

brlewis• 16 years ago

Not yet. Working on it.

ximeng2• 16 years ago

And, presumably thanks to tptacek's hard work, one of the key search terms bringing people in here is "sous vide supreme".

Luyt3• 16 years ago

"It turns out there is a hack in FreeBSD, invented by Filo, that causes the O/S not to give a new connection to the server until an entire HTTP request has arrived."

I wouldn't call it a hack, but a feature ;-)

    # Buffer a HTTP request in the kernel 
    # until it's completely read.
    apache22_http_accept_enable="yes"

Is HackerNews web scale?

makmanalp• 16 years ago

What does "web scale" mean? I see it thrown around a lot without much explanation.

klochner2• 16 years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2F-DItXtZs

Luyt3• 16 years ago

I think it means that your web app can survive being slashdotted. So, a lightweight C10K-capable frontend, all static content on a CDN, everything heavily cached, database queries optimized to the hilt, etc... etc... Some people think that just using a NoSQL database is sufficient, but there's much more to it. Interesting talk on this stuff (was posted on HN earlier): http://ontwik.com/python/django-deployment-workshop-by-jacob...

rograndom• 16 years ago

I was getting connection errors less than an hour ago, so I'm not sure if it actually worked.

spydum• 16 years ago

Does seem a bit faster -- could be placebo though :)

PStamatiou3• 16 years ago

Would be interesting to see if traffic goes up after this and is elastic. Marissa Mayer had a talk at some conference in 2009 where she explained her early tests on number of search results on Google - 10, 20, 25, 30 - but in the end it was just about the speed associated with loading the pages that accounted for the number of pageviews and visitors.

blinkingled2• 16 years ago

Sounds like there is a scalability issue within MzScheme in that it iterates over the number of threads, asking each thread about the sockets it has. As one can tell, once # of threads and # of sockets grow - finding which thread to run in user space becomes awfully expensive. As any clever admin will do, a least invasive fix involving limiting the number of connections and threads was done - with what sounds like immediate results!

I have no idea what MzScheme is but I am curious about why is HN running threads in user space in 2011? The OS kernel knows best what thread to pick to run and that is a very well tuned, O(1) operation for Linux and Solaris.

svlla3• 16 years ago

not to mention that one thread per connection is, well, extremely outdated.

jrockway3• 16 years ago

I don't know much about MzScheme, but it's quite possible that "thread" means "stack", not "OS thread". One context stack per TCP connection is quite sustainable; with Haskell's threads and Perl's coros, I run out of fds long before I'm using any significant amount of memory. (This is somewhere around 30,000 open connections on my un-tweaked Linux desktop. I know I can do a lot more if I tried.)

The issue, in the case of HN, is with O(n) IO watchers. Most sockets are idle most of the time, so you really want an algorithm that is O(n) over active sockets, not O(n) over active and inactive sockets. You typically have so few active fds at any time that the n is really tiny, making massively scalable network servers trivial to write. But you also have a lot of connections at any one time, so if you are O(n) over active and inactive fds, then you are going to have performance issues. Basically, you don't want to pay for connections that aren't doing anything.

Fortunately, we have the technology; epoll on Linux, kqueue on BSDs, /dev/poll on Solaris. You just need to use an event loop, so it does all the hard stuff for you (and so you don't have to worry about the OS differences). Hacking a proper event loop into MzScheme may be hard, but it's absolutely necessary for writing scalable network servers. Handling 10k+ open connections is trivial with today's technology. And, all the cool kids are doing it (node.js, GHC, etc.).

klochner2• 16 years ago

I think this whitepaper covers the plt web server bundled with MzScheme (now 'Racket'):

http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/kh...

idoh• 16 years ago

Hacker News uses a web server written in arc.

metageek2• 16 years ago

MzScheme is an implementation of Scheme (dialect of Lisp); it implements its own threading. This is not uncommon for languages which support (or used to support) many OSes, with many different versions of threading: it's easier to write it yourself, once, than maintain N+1 OS-specific versions.

Of course, these days, N+1 is probably 2, since everything except Windows supports pthreads.

blinkingled2• 16 years ago

If it's just a porting issue, there is Pthreads-win32 which worked well enough the last time I used it few years ago.

ezalor6• 16 years ago

Reverse-proxying via nginx would solve this problem and more: the arbitrary 30 second limit on form submission (hotspots sometimes are slow...), nginx could handle rate limiting & logging instead of srv.arc, etc. The Arc codebase would btw be smaller and cleaner (no policy/sanitization code, etc.).

Serving static content via Apache was a first step ;-)

Don't reinvent the wheel!

djcapelis2• 16 years ago

Did you just tell people running a company that reinvented funding with their custom written news site written in their own programming language with a custom web server that they shouldn't re-invent the wheel?

They think they can build a better wheel. They seem to like doing it and have a habit of it. There's nothing wrong with that.

kirubakaran2• 16 years ago

Unless they built their server with nand gates, I don't see running nginx reverse proxy to be incoherent with their philosophy.

ximeng2• 16 years ago

Off-topically, piecing together the years that the previous posts were made, it looks like February 4 2009 had a downvote cap of 100. It's 500 as of late last year. That suggests the annual karma inflation rate in the HN economy is sqrt(5), or ~224%.

seanfchan• 16 years ago

Yes placebo, oh our brains, though its not mid day just yet :)

dauphin10• 16 years ago

> It turns out there is a hack in FreeBSD, invented by Filo, that causes the O/S not to give a new connection to the server until an entire HTTP request has arrived. This might reduce the number of threads a lot, and thus improve performance; I'll give it a try today or tomorrow.

Anyone know if they're referring to "accept filters" here? FreeBSD folks can "man accf_http" if they're curious, which does prevent a request from being handed off to the application until the complete (and valid?) request has been made. Certainly not a "hack" but a feature of the OS itself.

Or they could use a proxy. All this "fuck me I'm famous" attitude is stupid.

svlla3• 16 years ago

this seems impossible for item pages due to how continuation ids are used for replies

dauphin10• 16 years ago

This could be resolved using consistent hashing or a critbit tree.

SageRaven• 16 years ago

taylorbuley3• 16 years ago

I feel silly asking, but who or what is 'rtm'?

kirubakaran2• 16 years ago

pg's friend. YC cofounder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Tappan_Morris

taylorbuley3• 16 years ago

Thanks for not being this guy: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2121511

dmuino• 16 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Tappan_Morris

dauphin10• 16 years ago

Book worm, nerd. Think Comic Book Guy, but healthier and smarter. Totally a bad-ass.

bear• 16 years ago

"Robert Morris, the other founder of Viaweb, whose username is Rtm"

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/bbnexcerpts.txt

ezalor6• 16 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Tappan_Morris

dauphin10• 16 years ago

1: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Robert_Tappan...

2: same acronym as RTFM, but polite.

deno• 16 years ago

Read The Friendly Manual. How much more polite can you be?

kujawa2• 16 years ago

Some punk skript kiddie who broke the internet in 1988.

steveklabnik• 16 years ago

I hear he crashed 1507 systems in one day.

nkassis• 16 years ago

First guy to completely crash the internet ;p

mcantor2• 16 years ago

Someone with a Wikipedia page where the only thing in the "See also" section is "List of convicted computer criminals."

Diagnosis: Badass.

ananthrk• 16 years ago

http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=rtm

Most recently, one of the creators of Arc (along with pg), the language used to create/run HN.

dauphin10• 16 years ago

Lisp is definitely not a slow language: you can handle the crazy rate of 20 requests/second on a multi-core server!

btilly• 16 years ago

They are only using one core. See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2116987 for verification.

dauphin10• 16 years ago

Ooops, yes, you are right, sorry. Then I guess it's a pretty decent rate for a Core2 duo.

mahmud2• 16 years ago

If you choose to. We pushed north of 800 r/s in production, and just shy of 4k in our LAN, that's using stock hunchentoot with just mere customization.

This guy here broke the 10k barrier:

http://john.freml.in/teepeedee2-c10k

richcollins• 16 years ago

Sounds like a switch to async I/O would be helpful.

dauphin10• 16 years ago

Well, HN is written in Arc, which is a layer on top of MzScheme. MzScheme handling of sockets is actually already done with the select() syscall, and its "threads" are lightweight non-blocking threads (think Erlang). So it's already async but with "sugar".

allwein• 16 years ago

When I read this headline, my immediate thought was "Oh, he must have forgotten to shut down the copy of his worm that was running on the HN servers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm

mahmud2• 16 years ago

Please, retire that stupid "joke". It's 22 years too old.

mcantor2• 16 years ago

First time I had heard it.

jwr• 16 years ago

Which is why it's good to have a mature VM underneath your language. Paul's choice of basing an implementation of Arc on MzScheme was a very good one (I remember people criticizing him for not building a standalone implementation with a new VM).

I write time-critical applications in Clojure and JVM's -XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC flag is a lifesaver. We no longer get those multi-second pauses when full GC occurs.

dhimes• 16 years ago

Sorry, guys, it was entirely my fault. I got Michael Grinich's iphone HN app and just love the damn thing. :)

axod8• 16 years ago

1 thread per connection??? Not doing continual GC in a separate thread and instead taking 7 seconds and blocking everything?

What is this the 1990s?

pg11• 16 years ago

Feel free to fork MzScheme and replace the garbage collector with a new one that runs continuously.

jhrobert• 16 years ago

There is no such thing as a free lunch

axod8• 16 years ago

Surely there's a way to target the JVM?

I'd trust my life on the JVM, it's pretty battle tested, and the GC is simply awesome.

acangiano• 16 years ago

Do you ever question the choice of MzScheme?

marcamillion3• 16 years ago

I love this response. Would be really interested in a follow-up from axod (or by pg about axod's version).

It's easy to criticize, but let's see what happens when the pedal hits the metal.

jlouis• 16 years ago

Let me add that one "thread" per connection works in Erlang for up to 80k connections easily. And since each "thread" is actually a process and each with their own GC, long pause-times are never a problem.

It is not the year, but the naivety that is the problem here, if any.

cperciva• 16 years ago

pg / rtm: If you need any FreeBSD-related help, please let me know (preferably not in the next couple of days, though...). There are lots of HN fans in the FreeBSD developer community.

jacquesm• 16 years ago

Let's hope that puts an end to all the time-outs!

Thanks for the work and it sure seems to be a lot more responsive.

rarrrrrr3• 16 years ago

Since no one has mentioned it yet - Varnish-cache.org, written by a FreeBSD kernel hacker, has a very nice feature, in that it will put all overlapping concurrent requests for the same cacheable resource "on hold", only fetch that resource once from the backend, then serve the same copy to all. Nearly all the expensive content on HN would be cacheable by varnish. Then you can get it down to pretty close to "1 backend request per content change" and stop worrying about how arbitrarily slow the actual backend server is, how many threads, how you deal with the socket, garbage collection, and all that.

dauphin10• 16 years ago

You clearly don't understand the problem. Even mod_pagespeed or memcached would be more appropriate here: They are rate-limited by the LISP kernel anyway (we are talking about dynamic content here).

rarrrrrr3• 16 years ago

Varnish sits in front of the backend, responding to all requests that it has cached content for directly, without bothering the backend at all. It lives higher in the stack than than pagespeed or memcache, and not limited by the backend's speed in any way.

j_baker3• 16 years ago

Can't you only use varnish for mostly non-dynamic content? Like for example, wouldn't the fact that it displays my username and karma score at the top of the page make it so that you couldn't use varnish (or at least make it more difficult)?

dminor• 16 years ago

Yes, you'd have to somehow separate the dynamic content from the static content so they could be fetched in different requests and then combined (probably via ajax). If it's just your username and karma then it's simple enough, but if the comments are displayed differently for different people then it could be bear.

seiji• 16 years ago

Check out http://www.varnish-cache.org/trac/wiki/ESIfeatures

There could be a private internal URL to just return username and karma to populate the user info header.

nuclear_eclipse2• 16 years ago

Reverse proxies won't work for HN, because requests for the same resource from multiple users can't use the same results. Not only are certain bits of info customized for the user (like your name/link at the top), but even things like the comments and links are custom per user.

Things like users' showdead value, as well as whether the user is deaded, can drastically change the output of each page. Eg, comments by a deaded user won't show as dead to that user, but they will for everyone else...

rfugger• 16 years ago

To make this work you could do all the per-user stuff with javascript and ajax calls in the browser. It would be quite a bit of revamping though.

Aaronontheweb• 16 years ago

So, you can't do donut caching in Varnish?

aonic2• 16 years ago

Varnish supports edge side includes. The header bar could be an ESI and the rest of the page could be cached

jjoe• 16 years ago

There's cookie-based caching in Varnish (and in some other proxy caches too). Essentially, the key is going to be made of the usual hash + the cookie like this:

sub vcl_hash { set req.hash += req.http.cookie; }

What this means is that the cache is per-logged-in-user and pretty much personalized. The server's going to need a lot more RAM than usual. You can set a low TTL on the cache entries so they're flushed and not kept in memory indefinitely. But the performance boost is great.

This is not recommended as an always-on measure. We wrote an entry about accomplishing something similar w/ python&varnish. Here it is if you're interesting in reading about it: http://blog.unixy.net/2010/11/3-state-throttle-web-server/

Regards

piotrSikora• 16 years ago

Of course it will work. The whole point of reverse-proxy is to buffer slow requests and send them fast over LAN to your back-end servers that cannot handle high concurrency efficiently.

The FreeBSD's accept_filter() used by Rtm does more or less that (you can think of it as of reverse-proxy in the kernel), but it only works for plain HTTP and HEAD/GET methods.

esbcupper2• 16 years ago

Instead of having concurrent requests wait for the single request to the backend it's almost always better to use stale-while-revalidate (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-stale-while...). AFAIK both varnish and squid support this.

antirez• 16 years ago

pg: you could probably try to write an event driven HTTP server on top of Arc, so that you don't have this kind of problems. Something like node.arc

Also if I understand correctly you use flat files that are loaded into memory at startup. It seems like that switching to Redis could be an interesting idea in theory, as it is more or less the implementation of this concept in an efficient and networked way.

Probably with such changes you can go from 20 to a few hundreds requests per second without problems.

joshu3• 16 years ago

Or you can put a reverse proxy in front.

http://joshua.schachter.org/2008/01/proxy.html

(Like I suggested in 2009...)

ars• 16 years ago

BTW, you suggest pound for the slow client problem, but according to this email it doesn't help for that.

http://www.apsis.ch/pound/pound_list/archive/2010/2010-11/12...

joshu3• 16 years ago

Pound helped this problem for delicious in 2005, and by the time I wrote this article it was starting to not be the right answer. In 2011, it's definitely wrong :)

mmaunder• 16 years ago

"In 7 seconds, a hundred or more connections accumulate. So the server ends up with hundreds of threads, most of them probably waiting for input (waiting for the HTTP request). MzScheme can be inefficient when there are 100s of threads waiting for input -- when it wants to find a thread to run, it asks the O/S kernel about each socket in turn to see if any input is ready, and that's a lot of asking per thread switch if there are lots of threads. So the server is able to complete fewer requests per second when there is a big backlog, which lets more backlog accumulate, and perhaps it takes a long time for the server to recover."

I may have misunderstood but it sounds like you have MzScheme facing the open internet? Try putting nginx (or another epoll/kqueue based server) in front of MzScheme. It will handle the thousands of connections you have that are waiting for IO with very little incremental CPU load and with a single thread. Then when nginx reverse proxies to MzScheme each request happens very fast because it's local which means you need much fewer threads for your app server. That means less memory and less of the other overhead that you get with a high thread count.

An additional advantage is that you can enable keepalive again (right now you have it disabled it looks like) which makes things a faster for first-time visitors. It also makes it slightly faster for us regulars because the conditional gets we do for the gif's and css won't have to reestablish connections. Less connections established means you give your OS a break too with fewer syn/syn-ack/ack TCP handshakes.

Someone mentioned below that reverse proxies won't work for HN. They mean that caching won't work - but a reverse proxy like nginx that doesn't cache but handles high concurrency efficiently should give you a huge perf improvement.

PS: I'd love to help implement this free. I run a 600 req/sec site using nginx reverse proxying to apache.

joshu3• 16 years ago

Exactly this.

sedachv3• 16 years ago

Or I don't know, use continuations in a place that's actually appropriate? John Fremlin showed that even with horrible CPS rewriting and epoll you can get way better throughput in SBCL (TPD2) than nginx. MzScheme comes with native continuations. It's not hard to call out to epoll.

Instead everyone in the Lisp community (pg included) is still enamored with using continuations to produce ugly URLs and unmaintainable web applications.

pg11• 16 years ago

Instead everyone in the Lisp community (pg included) is still enamored with using continuations to produce ugly URLs and unmaintainable web applications.

If you read the source of HN, you'll see that it doesn't actually use continuations.

I find the source of HN very clear. Have you read it? Is there a specific part you found so complicated as to be unmaintainable?

gchpaco• 16 years ago

MzScheme/Racket's continuations are of the "copy the C stack" variety, or were last time I checked. They are in no way efficient; it would probably be better to CPS transform your own code than try to use MzScheme/Racket's continuations directly in performance sensitive code.

esbcupper2• 16 years ago

Filo's BSD hack to buffer the entire HTTP request and then pass it on has the same effect as using nginx here.

It doesn't help with keepalive though, but that's probably not needed.

akkartik• 16 years ago

"it sounds like you have MzScheme facing the open internet?"

Yep. The arc webserver runs directly on port 80, for which it needs to run as root. To avoid all sorts of security headaches, it runs:

  (setuid 2)

soon after startup.

The whole thing seems hacky.

sayrer• 16 years ago

They said caching wouldn't work, but they could be wrong. You can't change the Cache-Control header to public for HN responses, because the same URL can appear different to different users. There may be some ways around this, including giving each logged-in user their own URL to browse with.

But that might be a lot of work. You can still set up a proxy that kicks in only for requests that don't contain a session cookie. Then, requests without a cookie can be responded to with a cached copy from Varnish, and Varnish could refresh every 30 seconds or so. That might reduce the number of connections to MzScheme by quite a lot.

mbubb3• 16 years ago

I find it disturbing to see people asking "Who is Rtm?" "Who is filo?"

I understand if you are in tech you might not know figures in history or literature... but these guys?

Every time you login to a UNIX/Linux system you use the passwd file and related setup - authored at least in part by Rtm's father.

http://www.manpages.info/freebsd/passwd.1.html

Rtm has done lots in his own right as the wikipdia pages show.

But seriously - if you don't know who these people are you really should.

Read this: http://www.princeton.edu/~hos/Mahoney/unixhistory

and maybe ESR's writings and that online anthology of the early Apple days and old issues of 2600, etc, etc

I am sorry - but it is really irritating to me that someone would be on this site and really not be aware of the deeper history and culture. It is not that deep - 1950s to present (to cover Lisp).

As Jay-Z (whom you probably know) says - "Go read a book you illiterate son of a bitch and step up your vocab ..."

taylorbuley3• 16 years ago

You're making little sense. So "go learn" but "don't ask?"

mbubb3• 16 years ago

You write for a major magazine on the subject. Yes - I would hope you know more about the history of this topic than I do.

viraptor• 16 years ago

It's really nothing to get excited about. There are so many important programmers in the world that noone will remember them all. Not everyone works in the area where those people will mean anything more than a credit line in some tool they use... and that's fine.

I work with VoIP daily and could name lots of people who you "really should" know - you're using a phone all the time after all. Or people who create amazing stuff right now. But no... actually I don't expect that. Everyone has their own area of interest. I appreciate that someone wrote `cat` or one hundreds of other nice utilities, but I'm not going to read their history unless I've got a lot of free time and want to do that.

marcamillion3• 16 years ago

This has to be one of the most unnecessary comments I have seen recently on HN.

Civility people. What happened to that?

Btw, I down vote me if you like, but it's true. It's easy for us to get caught up in our own brilliance that we talk down to others that don't know as much in a particular subject as we do.

Ironically, it shows more about you, than it does them.

mbubb3• 16 years ago

Civility? Go to a sports blog - put on you Bio that you are a journalist for sports illustrated and then in the commentary of an article on American football ask the question "who is Joe Namath?" Then judge my commentary by its relative civility. Do you not read about the authors of books you read - music you listen to? Why then wouldn't you read up on the people whose software you use. I am sorry - it is ignorance and on HN that deserves to be called out.

biot• 16 years ago

Who is ESR? ;)

js4all• 16 years ago

  > In 7 seconds, a hundred or more connections accumulate. So  
  > the server ends up with hundreds of threads, most of them  
  > probably waiting for input

This is why Nginx handles large site much better. The request are queued without spawning threads. Evented I/O for the rescue.

bootload• 16 years ago

is there any reason the noobs url (29 Apr: Faster, Fewer Flamewars) ~ http://news.ycombinator.com/noobs shows no results?

pg11• 16 years ago

It has since been split into noobstories and noobcomments.

alain94040• 16 years ago

I have a proposal to settle flamewars by the way. I had meant to propose something like this (a debate solver) for years. Here it is:

After 4 levels of back and forth (Joe says "...", Tim replies, then Joe replies once more, then Tim replies again), freeze that branch, hide it from the general public, and turn the branch into a settlement: both Tim and Joe are allowed one final comment each, that they both approve. Only once they have posted this compromise, is it shown in-place, where the original sub-thread used to be.

Simple. Prevents endless arguments. Good for everyone.

brc• 16 years ago

Hmm, I have had ideas for something similar, but which involves having to choose a side of the argument (ie, agree with parent or disagree) before posting. Once chosen, you can only vote on your 'side' (either up or down). Poor arguments on your 'side' can be killed with sufficient downvotes, so that the ensuing set of arguments hopefully ends up being the best set. This tends to happen in an informal way on HN, but only because people largely behave. In other forums, not so much. Perhaps glomming together your idea of maximum posts per user on a topic, along with side-based voting, some type of civil debating platform coudl be developed. After all, in actual debates you get 2 chances to state your position and a final sum-up.

idlewords2• 16 years ago

Not being able to handle 20 requests/sec quickly, in 2011, for a read-mostly website is just shameful.

jwhite2• 16 years ago

I think that all depends on the purpose of the site. If I were paying a subscription to access the site I would be within my rights to object. As it is, with HN being a free service, built to be the application spurring the development of Arc, whose reference implementation is intended for exploring language design and not performance, I wouldn't choose the word "shameful" to describe this situation.

idlewords2• 16 years ago

I guess it depends on your priorities. Personally, I think the community discussion here is far more interesting than the toy language project it runs on. If you think Arc is the future of computing you may think of this discussion board as just a convenient test suite for the language.

Either way, it's 2011 and that really is some spectacular slowness.

Why HN was slow and how Rtm fixed it

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