Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

http://www.chinafile.com/reporting-opinion/viewpoint/chinas-government-wants-you-think-all-mainlanders-view-hong-kong-same

by hardmaru • 7 years ago

126 80 7 years ago

chinafile.com

the_resistence• 7 years ago

Without all the facts, mainlanders will never be in a clear position to make a proper decision. That's how the system is designed.

ubercow13• 7 years ago

Isn't this exactly the point of view that the article is arguing against?

kevingadd• 7 years ago

There seems to be a subtle distinction: The point is not that mainlanders can't or won't see the truth, but that their ability to make informed decisions is being undermined. The article argues that many mainlanders are doing their best and making good decisions despite being undermined by their government... but there's certainly a lot being done to stop them.

chrischen3• 7 years ago

To be fair, even with the facts I doubt the average person would ever be well-informed enough to make a proper decision. Governing should be a full time job done by professionals. Imagine if Apple were run by its users...

xmprt• 7 years ago

To be fair, even with all the facts and being well-informed, I doubt a mainlander would risk all the trouble they'd get into for supporting HK.

cryptonector• 7 years ago

Talk about anti-democratic.

Y_Y• 7 years ago

Imagine Apple were run by professionals! They'd employ sweatshop labour, charge exorbitant prices, and control a colossal pile of cash for which they cannot find a use.

paxys• 7 years ago

And what exactly is a "professional" governor?

dragonelite• 7 years ago

From what i gathered 140 million mainlanders travel abroad each year. and 140 million mainlanders return to China.

That tells you enough people vote with their feets, wallet and voice.

GuiA2• 7 years ago

What do they see when they travel abroad though?

A large portion (if not a majority?) of those 140 million travelers go through organized tour groups, where they jump from attraction to attraction, staying half an hour or so to take pictures before rushing back to the bus to head to the next stop.

This French photographer was allowed to join such a group and it's fascinating:

http://www.slate.fr/grand-format/touristes-chinois-europe-je...

Choice quotes from the photographer (translated):

"Costs are cut on everything. For 10 days, we ate Chinese food for lunch and dinner. Before I started this project, I thought that tourists always ate Chinese food because they weren't curious. But cheap backroom cafeterias are imposed on them, where the meal (often inedible) costs 5 euros per person. We only took 10 minutes to eat, and I'd always be the last to finish. After Paris, we were supposed to sleep in the "French village" of Dijon [original is in quote because Dijon is a large city]. But the hotel was situated along the highway, at Sauvigny-sous-Bois [about an hour away from Dijon]. That night, with Lan, we decided to take two people to Relais Fleuri, a nice restaurant next to the hotel, without the guide, so they could discover French gastronomy. When we got back, the guide was really upset. The next day, I got an email from the agency saying that if it happened again, I'd be kicked out from the group."

"The majority of guides are not there to teach. When Chinese tourists go back home, they haven't learned much; in fact, stereotypes tend to be reinforced [...] a few of them complained about the [Chinese meals], and that they wouldn't visit markets, for instance, but those criticisms were very limited. It's a shame, because the only contact they have with French people is at the register, when they buy something."

"I was shocked by how resigned people were. You're not supposed to disagree with anything. The guide was considered like a boss whose orders had to be followed, and who should never be contradicted. Ours was 34 years old, and went into tourism for money. But he didn't know anything about Europe, and spent the whole time telling cliché anecdotes about cities. He even got monument names wrong! His only goal was to sell additional options, such as gondola rides, to get a bonus."

realaether• 7 years ago

Strongly disagree. I'm Canadian-Hong Kong, grew up in Hong Kong, and have family in China. Chinese citizens (by which I mean only mainland China, and excluding Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan) need exit visas to leave the country and they're not necessarily easy to acquire; anecdotally, those in my extended family who work for the Chinese government are able to get it quite easily (having shown loyalty, willingness to serve, etc.) but those who don't won't get a visa so easily. Consequently we've had vacations where half the family had to cancel at the last minute: even though everyone had the same itinerary and tickets, and were clearly related to each other, some weren't authorised to leave.

I believe it's not a matter of "voting with your feet" so much as "if you don't have a good standing with the government, you aren't getting out in the first place". Anyway, even if you got out and couldn't get back in, the government would probably send people to "escort you back home".

In [the link that GuiA gives below](http://www.slate.fr/grand-format/touristes-chinois-europe-je...), the last slide tells of how the tourists have to surrender their passports; I wonder if the high number of tourists is because going through a tourist agency (all of which are state approved) is the easiest way to get an exit visa. I wouldn't be surprised if the agencies were held accountable for any bad behaviour or runaway attempts.

À leur arrivée en Europe, les touristes donnent leurs passeports au guide, on leur dit que c'est plus sûr. Ils les récupèrent au moment de partir mais doivent les rendre au guide une fois en Chine pour dix jours à deux semaines afin de vérifier qu'ils sont bien rentrés. Il y a même un code de bonne conduite et les touristes sont encouragés à dénoncer les autres touristes qui se sont mal comportés en Europe.

My translation:

On their arrival in Europe, the tourists give their passports to the tour guide — they're told it's safer that way. They get them back the moment they leave, but must give them to the guide again for 10–14 days once landed in China so it can be verified that they did indeed return from their trip. There's even a code of good conduct and the tourists are encouraged to denounce other tourists who behaved badly in Europe.

It's also worth noting that China doesn't recognise dual citizenship, and that Hong Kong citizens (not sure about Macau and Taiwan, but I wouldn't be surprised if this applied to them too) are considered mainland citizens once in the mainland. So I, for example, wouldn't be able to appeal to the Canadian embassy if anything happened.

Given that, even if someone stayed abroad long enough to gain a second citizenship, they'd have to give up their Chinese citizenship in order to avoid risking being "escorted home".

kristianp• 7 years ago

Does it matter what the mainlanders think? It's the communist party that controls China, not the general public.

verroq3• 7 years ago

A government without the support of its people generally gets removed by the people.

pishpash• 7 years ago

That's right. The Chinese government and the 90 million Party members are drawn from the people. It's easy to dismiss all of them if that makes someone comfortable, but reality is rather more complicated than either "China is full of Communist drones, all of them" and "Government and people are on completely opposite sides one oppressing the other." It's a symbiotic and pragmatic relationship.

lacampbell• 7 years ago

Dictatorships need a lot less popular support than democracies. Of course once that popular support evaporates, the regime change is a lot messier than an election.

SpicyLemonZest• 7 years ago

Sure, but do the Chinese people actually care about Hong Kong governance beyond what the Communist Party promotes? Would there be mass protests if the government just declared one country two systems is great and they’re going back to a strict interpretation of it?

seanmcdirmid3• 7 years ago

Even in China, public opinion has a huge influence on the CPC, which is why they try to shape it at all.

iiuytrty2• 7 years ago

The Party has over 90 million members.

dumbfoundded2• 7 years ago

Just an anecdote. I went to Beijing to watch the Olympics while I was in high school. During a volleyball game, I sat next to a local Chinese boy about my age and started talking with him.

Apparently, at some Chinese schools, they give all of the students an English name. Kind of like how American schools give you a Spanish name for Spanish class. His name was Adolf. I asked him if he knew any other famous Adolf's. Of course, he did.

I asked him about why the Chinese cheer so fervently against the Americans, even when they're not playing the Chinese. He said it was because Americans were friends with the Japanese. To play devil's advocate, I told him that the Americans fought the Japanese in WW2, significantly helping China, and dropped nukes on the Japanese. He told me it wasn't enough, the US should've eliminated Japan from the map.

I don't think my sample size is representative but I think it's a warning of how strong nationalism can be. In the US, we have relatively free flows of information and we still have a dangerous nationalist movement. I imagine it's much stronger in China where the government actively encourages it.

devoply2• 7 years ago

Just watched this which calls CPC a mafia... Interview with Miles Kwok by Kyle Bass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE

verroq3• 7 years ago

The anti-American sentiment draws from the Boxer Rebellion and the Eight Nation Alliance that sacked the Summer Palace as well as America's support of the KMT during WW2. In the eyes of the Chinese, America eliminating Japan in WW2 doesn't absolve itself of its past grievances (nor its present ones i.e. playing world police and inserting itself into the South China Sea disputes).

seanmcdirmid3• 7 years ago

America supported both the KMT and communists, not to mention the soviets, during WW2. They didn’t really fall out with each other until the Korean War (at the start of which they decided to fully support the KMT after giving up on them after the war).

kccqzy5• 7 years ago

In contrast I really think the root is an anti-Japanese sentiment instead of an anti-American one. For many centuries Japan had been considered a poorer and less powerful empire than the Chinese empire. But the Japanese had a successful Meiji restoration and surpassed China in industrial production and weaponry in the late 19th century. The Chinese lost a war to Japan. They still feel resented. The anti-Japanese sentiment goes further than the WWII.

apexalpha2• 7 years ago

Apparently, at some Chinese schools, they give all of the students an English name. Kind of like how American schools give you a Spanish name for Spanish class. His name was Adolf. I asked him if he knew any other famous Adolf's. Of course, he did.

I spent some time teaching English at a Chinese university and this just brought me back.

You see you can't just make up new words in Chinese like you can in Latin based languages. In English I could type "menseratanos" here and even though you have never seen it you can (at least try) to pronounce it based on the individual letters. But Chinese doesn't work this way since you can't make up a new Chinese sign and just expect people to know what it represents.

So to create names Chinese people combine existing words and end up with names native Americans used to have: "Grey wind", "Yellow sun", "Good Fortune" etc... Of course these all have more meaning to them in Chinese but you get the point. And therefor it is common to let Chinese people pick their own name for English class and... it is absolutely hilarious. Since they usually have as little exposure to the Western world as someone in the West has to the Chinese you will be left with a class named, and these are all real examples from my classes:

- Beyonce (for a boy).

- Vladimir

- Putin

- Vladimir Putin (would refuse to be called Vladimir or Putin).

- Fog (as in tiny water droplets)

- Adolf Hitler

- Justin Bieber

- Michael Jackson

- Morning (the time of day)

etc..

The Adolf Hitler kid I actually told to change it. When asked why he picked it he said: "he is great king". (after asking: he meant 'conqueror').

All in all living in China for a while is a fantastic experience.

5etho• 7 years ago

This adolf hitler kid got me good, it was some rular area? Do this kid have any grasp of western culture?

yodsanklai• 7 years ago

I don't think my sample size is representative but I think it's a warning of how strong nationalism can be

Unfortunately, that's the kind of things you can hear anywhere in the world.

I imagine it's much stronger in China where the government actively encourages it.

I wonder... I have a colleague of mine who grew up in a communism country. According to him, most people back then didn't really buy into government propaganda, which contrasts with modern democracies which rely on more subtle propaganda (Chomsky's "media control").

I really have no idea, it could well be that Chinese are on average less nationalist/warmonging than Americans for instance.

inimino2• 7 years ago

on average less nationalist/warmonging than Americans

Less warmongering on average, but get them on the topic of Japan and things change. Vastly more nationalistic on average, and with a much larger population that is way more homogeneous in their politics and nationalism than you've ever seen anywhere in the US. Source: seven years in China.

codeswap• 7 years ago

You have to take into account that Japan was the ISIS of Asia. Bayoneting babies, sex slave, medical experiments on humans. In South Korea still dislike of Japan is greater than North Korea. And Japan is got off mostly free after ww2 unlike the German trials

joyeuse6701• 7 years ago

Sure, there were no public trials to provide a catharsis for the crimes against humanity, still though, two atomic bombs on major cities vaporizing babies, men and women alike doesn't sound like 'mostly free'.

avcdsuia• 7 years ago

You know the main purpose of nationalism in China is to justify goverment decrees right? They don't hate other countries by heart spontaneously, not like those in the US.

kccqzy5• 7 years ago

Since I can read Chinese, I've been reading news coverage as well as opinions from both the English-speaking and the Chinese-speaking media. It is quite depressing to find that both sides are obviously biased. The Chinese news would emphasize isolated incidents of violence by the protesters during the protests, pontificate on it and publish op-eds analyzing the cause of the protests ranging from the failed economy of Hong Kong to the profound corruption of its youth. The English side of course would illustrate the use of tear gas and facial recognition technology by the police and paint the protestors as victims of an unjust and unsympathetic government whose independence and autonomy is chipped away little by little. Opinions aside, even just for the facts I'd like to think there's truth in both, but it really depressing that neither really wants to report the truth and the whole truth.

devoply2• 7 years ago

Well what truth do you want? China wants to extradite Hong Kong citizens to China to stand trial. Hong Kong citizens want autonomy. This is a classic David vs Goliath battle.

kccqzy5• 7 years ago

The protests did start because of the extradition bill, but the bill has been dead for more than a month[0], yet the protests have not stopped. Can you see that the protestors are protesting about something else now? If the bill were the protesters' goal, they had already succeeded.

The situation is so much more complicated than just an ill-conceived bill. It doesn't help things when media (or other people) try to simplify things and frame it as something as clear cut as David vs Goliath.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-48918096/carrie...

Arn_Thor• 7 years ago

I think that kind of two-handedness is misguided and unhelpful. International media is openly reporting the violent side of the protest: brick-throwing, sticks, petrol bombs etc. Video footage of protesters beating away at police are openly displayed. Certainly, it is reported with the angle that the protesters have broad public support (as is true) and that they are the underdog fighting a justified battle against an increasingly oppressive regime (as is also true). But it is by no means one-sided coverage

IIAOPSW6• 7 years ago

I don't see any element of truth in the "failed economy" narrative. That's one angle that we really can get to the truth of without any media bias.

Are there any econometrics published from before the protests started that would indicate an economic cause? I haven't seen any but I also haven't looked hard enough to reject the premise.

xster• 7 years ago

Where did you look for them?

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/2174006/...

kccqzy5• 7 years ago

I can clarify. The "failed economy" narrative was mostly about the rising income inequality among Hong Kongers. The mainland news media is trying to portray Hong Kong as having a mismanaged economy so that these young people engaged in protests have seen very little increase in real income but face tremendous increase in cost of living. And they compare it unfavorably to the situation in mainland China where they claim that the communist party has increased the well-being and wealth of everyone. There's some element of truth in it, but of course I find it exaggerated.

iiuytrty2• 7 years ago

Compare Hong Kong to Macau.

They are in the same position, - Colonized by a European country and then returned to China, - Under one country, two systems - Speak Cantonese

but Macau’s GDP per person is almost double that of Hong Kong.

There are no protests in Macau.

goblin892• 7 years ago

I would not precisely segregate the bias of HK protest reports by language—some Cantonese (though very rarely Mandarin) outlets report news with protester bias, and vice-versa, there are English takes that sympathize with the police and/or mainland—but overall the lack of balanced reporting is frustrating.

That said, I have come to empathize with the disadvantaged side. When you have the information about the Tiananmen massacre, oppression in Urumqi, and everything else available through non-state-controlled sources; you see your home headed to join that system (a completely another country compared to 150 years ago); and you are facing a formidable entity well-versed in informational warfare and with extensive control over media—even if I condemn particular actions, I would find it hard to judge you for attempting to employ any means you find available, including one-sided reporting.

I do still get depressed every time I see attempts to fight bias with more bias.

doktrin• 7 years ago

The Chinese news would emphasize isolated incidents of violence by the protesters during the protests, pontificate on it and publish op-eds analyzing the cause of the protests ranging from the failed economy of Hong Kong to the profound corruption of its youth.

You still haven't explained what 'truth' is missing from the english language news coverage. Pontificating about the "corruption of HK youth" and cherry picking isolated cases of violence sounds more like partisan hatcheting than actual news or analysis.

there's truth in both sides

Most likely, but the truth rarely exists at the median of both 'sides', or even anywhere close to it. Enlightened Centrism(tm) is dangerously myopic.

inimino2• 7 years ago

Fortunately with freedom of the press we're able to pick our news sources and many Chinese state-sponsored media are also published in English. I don't think Beijing's perspective is getting short shrift.

olgdyf2• 7 years ago

Many Hongkongers were taught to look down the mainland and they are not proud of their own country. If you read more of the history of how different acts were withdrawn since 1997, you will see whatever the local government did, they do not agree - for the sake of being proud of disagreeing "mainland ruled" government :-) They probably do not necessarily worry about their life because most of them spent their parents' money. So they spend time to ruin the place they live in to pursue the spirit what was taught.

The economical decreasing, which was assumed to be one of the reasons of the protests, seems actually caused by the attitude. Namely if a person always wants to find a way to be against his manager (politically), is he capable of developing his own benefit in a company (economically)? I doubt.

I have to say, this is a smart move of anti-mainland (or anti-CCP) people to leverage these brainwashed young puppets and lead the movement. But it is meanwhile not so smart that everyone who can read Chinese knows who's really leading it. To be honest, this movement is really nothing to mainland if you understood the history in the past 70 years how the country was managed to develop.

And yes, looking into the media in both sides would be a good thing to mitigate the bias.

Besides, "the truth and the whole truth" is a joke, don't be depressed :-)

edwinyzh• 7 years ago

That's the correct observation, as far as I can tell. Bias are everywhere, including here at HN.

archibaldJ• 7 years ago

Nationalism aside as a Chinese citizen I believe all educated Chinese citizens should be grateful to the protesters in Hong Kong for the sole reason that these protesters are directly challenging the CCP (which is an extremely rare thing to happen in this day and age without the direct involvement of another superpower). It may be wishful thinking but I believe through direct confrontation like this CCP will learn and improve and reflect on all the shit it has done (just to name a few: the Tiananmen massacre, the disinformation campaign against Falun Gong and Jiang’s subsequent use of Falun Gong as a scapegoat to fulfil his political needs leading to more killings and screwed-up things like organ harvesting, the suppression and killings of the Tibetan culture and people, the on-going internment camps in Xinjiang, the kidnapping of Gui Minhai and others related to the Causeway Bay bookstore, etc) which collectively, in direct or indirect ways, lead to the pandemonium in Hong Kong today.

ConfusedDog2• 7 years ago

Only if HK didn’t protest against mainland tourists before. A lot of them has strong prejudice against mainland Chinese making it easy for Chinese government spin the people against these protesters.

mcny2• 7 years ago

» Only if HK didn’t protest against mainland tourists before.

Well yeah. China PR wants to pack Hong Kong with han people. This is no secret. They did the same with Tibet as well.

Aperocky• 7 years ago

There are some extremely strong prejudice and discrimination against people from mainland, it's similar to racism. mainland Chinese people didn't know this in the past however the past few years it became much more pronounced, this is especially true among the poorer people in HK. People who visited Hong Kong came back with very negative experience and words spread fast. There's next to 0 sympathy to Hong Kong in mainland today, if the PLA rolled in to quell the protest, half would probably cheer.

olgdyf2• 7 years ago

Exactly, as a mainland Chinese, I traveled to dozens of countries and districts. Hong Kong was the least place I wanted to visit. As a matter of fact, I have never been there except at only one time when I needed to stay there over night for a connection flight, and I chose to stay at the hotel in the airport. I think others' negative experience stands for at least 70% of the reason for my negative attitude to Hong Kong.

Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

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